I love trolling TERFs and watching them fall for it. Y’all asked for it by interacting and here we are. Cry about it LMAOO. Merry Christmas to me this is amazing.
How about instead of putting trans women in men’s prisons we put TERFs in there instead.
Ugly ass terf bitches please keep getting angry at this post it’s my current source of joy seeing you useless transphobic cunts pissed
ur misogyny is showing luv x
I don’t hate women. I hate TERFs. Y’all just happen to be really shitty women.
If hating a group of horrible people is misogynistic because you happen to all be women, then you’re a misogynistic as well since you guys hate transgender women. A trans misogynist, specifically.
can people here start talking about what just happened on alabama please, a lot of trans people are in danger and no one here is mentioning it, sorry for the guilt trip but im scared for my girlfriends life rn
Ok this is some really scary shit and please lookout for any Alabama citizens in need of help in the coming days. Our young ones are our most vulnerable
As expected, there are multiple groups getting ready to challenge this, but it doesn’t stop the harm already caused. This is a huge transgender rights issue and could set a precedent for other bigoted state legislatures. Anyone who is concerned with transgender rights (read human rights) needs to be fighting this. I urge anyone with the resources to donate to either these groups or any local mutal aid groups
Our governor just signed it through today as of writing this. They’re also advancing the bathroom bill which has Alabama’s very own Don’t Say Gay attached to it. There is an incredibly large and vibrant LGBT/Queer community in Alabama. There are a lot of trans kids here. The anti-healthcare bill will not last because it isn’t constitutional, but the damage that will be done while it’s in place is absolutely terrifying. Please please please read more into this. There are several organization in the area (I can think of at least four in my city just off the top of my head) that are going to be working overtime for our communities and they are going to need as much help as they can get.
For the love of all things please do not keep sweeping this state under the rug. We are not an out of sight out of mind problem. There are queer people in Alabama, and the ones most impacted by this are those of us living at the intersection of both queerness + poverty and/or BIPOC experience - which is MOST of us. Acting as if we have this coming, we deserve this because of the actions of our state government, we should all just leave, etc is tone deaf and absolutely disgusting. None of us deserve this.
If you live in the UK please please sign this petition and reblog this post. If you dont live in the UK please reblog this and spread it as far as possible.
TLDR; they’re trying to ban conversion therapy in the UK and are refusing to ban it for trans people too. We need your help.
I always knew AfterEllen.com was cryptoTERF trash but looks like they’re really showing where they stand now.
I don’t know how long this has been in the works but the last week of their Twitter profile is enough:
As well as supporting meghan murphy they are really pushing the idea of trans women as male predators. Miranda Yardley is an English trans woman who repeats TERF talking points for them and was very well received for opposing updating the Gender Recognition Act in the UK. The reference to Stonewall UK also suggests that the new staff are completely in bed with English TERFs, who have links to US Evangelical funding.
Stop supporting After Ellen, the name has essentially been bought out to promote a fascist agenda which wants to remove all trans people from existence and then work on doing the same to the rest of the LGBT community (whether individual contributors admit it or not).
Yeah afterellen was bought out and no longer is an independant website. No surprise they’re terfs bc thats the kind of agenda straight men controlling lesbian websites love 2 push
Yah. Past AE peeps are NOT impressed with what’s happened, what with now being so openly transphobic, as well as literally erasing ALL work from authors who are trans-inclusive and all articles that spoke positively about trans people in any manner whatsoever.
Current AfterEllen staff is literally erasing the voices of all the women who came before them. And yet people still ask for proof of how TERFs hurt cis women. Well there you fucking go. A bunch of men and TERFs have decided that all of the cis women they disagree with don’t deserve to have a voice anymore than trans women do.
I think it is fundamentally incorrect to label people as good or bad. No one is born inherently good. No one is born inherently bad. Actions are good or bad, specifically because of how they impact others. One bad deed does not erase future potential for good.
Why do I think this is a necessary mindset for life? Based on our upbringing and our environment, we may have deep understanding in some areas, and blind spots in others. It is inevitable that we will all do something that, looking back, was ill-informed or harmful. By perceiving ourselves and others through a dynamic rather than a static lens, we acknowledge that mistakes are a material reality of life, that they do not indicate inherent value, and that growth is possible.
I feel like some people are worried that my end goal here is “cancelling” people. I’m going to clear that up now.
I am not having this conversation because I want to put the hurt on people. I sincerely want each and every one of you to be here in this fandom. But I am having this conversation because I think some people have said some unfortunate things that are a) rather ignorant and b) harmful to the community.
I am a trans man, and I think some of the things that have been said border on or cross into transphobia. This is not a permanent condemnation of the souls of those who’ve said these things. Ignorance is not a sin! Ignorance is resolved by conversation! I am hoping that this public provokes some private reflection on unconscious and unchallenged beliefs.
What I find frustrating is that when trans people mention the transphobia in the community, people’s first reaction is … guilt? Denial? Anger? I think people are digging in deeper in their trenches because they don’t want to admit that it was wrong to defend a transphobe, and they’re afraid to admit that they did something mildly transphobic themselves.
I get it, it’s scary to admit you’ve done something unkind when we place so much (erroneous) emphasis on the inherent nature of goodness. As I said about, Good is something you Become, not something you Are. If you want to change, change. We’re all changing, all the time.
OK, I need to say something about fan culture. No idea if anyone’s gonna listen, but I do feel faintly sick.
How do we, as a fandom, want to treat each other?
Around a year ago, a writer I cared about - madamefaust - was violently bullied out of another fandom and deleted everything she had made. All her works, her entire tumblr. It turned out she had been falsely accused of racism by a group of trolls who… Oh, I’m not going to start this again, read it up on my tumblr if you’re interested. The point is, she hadn’t actually been racist. The reason for this entire charade was envy, and it destroyed her online presence. She cut all ties, so we don’t even know she’s ok.
The way it happened - and I’m getting to the point here - were callout posts which dragged her name across the entire fandom, instead of limiting it to a discussion among individuals. Look, everyone, what she did! Here are screenshots! And then the next person chimes in, HOW DARE YOU, you should be ashamed! There’s no way to defend yourself, if such a thing has started. People read and reblog and judge without actually knowing what happened.
Which is why I would like to say, very emphatically, to @lie-where-i-land: Please do not handle it this way. I understand your point, but the way you’re attacking @cycasand@warrioreowynofrohan (who, for context, opposed the ‘cancellation’ of someone you believe to be a terf) for all the fandom to see, screenshotting their post, inviting everyone to add pressure on them, is not the way to handle fandom conflicts. Many of us around here are old enough to have seen fandom wars, and we don’t want them anymore. Let’s not spread hatred and contempt. There’s enough of that in the world right now.
If you want to express your concerns about transphobia and terfs in fandom, please do! I’m sure most of us will be interested and willing to reflect, engage in discussion, work out ways to make fandom a safe space for trans people. But callout posts of that sort are poison. Please don’t do this.
I want to have that discussion about transphobia in fandom.
But how do you expect it to go? That we all reflect on it and discuss it, and there will magically appear a way to make fandom a safe space for trans people without banning transphobic people?
Because what we are discussing here is the Paradox of Tolerance. I recommend googling it, it is a philosophical argument that has been around for a really long time but was codified in the 40’s by someone named Karl Popper.
The paradox goes like this: “In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must remain intolerant of intolerance.”
And it’s just true. You can’t invite two parties to a table for a good faith discussion when the central tenant of one of those parties is that the other should not exist.
TERFs or “gender critical people” or “anti- trans rights activists” or “I don’t understand what TERF even is, I just believe *insert transphobic statement here* people” being accepted into this community makes it an inherently dangerous and toxic place for Trans people.
If what you want to discuss is “is Venwe a TERF?” you don’t have to take anyone’s word for it. Check out her blog. I did. I found TERF content. I blocked her.
I am grateful for the heads up! I have been being recommended TERF posts by tumblr recently, which greatly upset me and was a negative impact on my experience here, and I couldn’t figure out why. I interacted with Venwe’s blog when she reblogged one of my posts, just about when that started happening. Hopefully it will stop now. I doubt it’ll be that simple, but I’d rather live in hope.
And, to clarify, I’m cis. Transphobia makes me angry, but I don’t feel gut dropping fear when I see it, I don’t feel personally attacked, I don’t have to question whether I can even stay in this community, or if it’s about to be flooded by people who are hostile to me personally.
I don’t have to worry that the place I go online to have fun and engage in my interests with like-minded individuals will suddenly decide that blatently hating me, and people like me, is more okay than pointing out that that hate exists, which is what is happening right now.
@lie-where-i-land didn’t bring this issue up randomly out of nowhere, he wasn’t responding to just seeing venwe’s name on his dash, he was informing @cycas of the nature of a user that @cycas had actively boosted with a reblog of a request from Venwe to get back in touch with the community on here.
And then he has responded reasonably. Honestly, I’m confused why you’re begging for discourse and discussion… there is SO MUCH discussion happening. I see @lie-where-i-land working really hard to inform people about why including TERFs pose a threat to the diversity of our fandom, providing a lot of explainations to a lot of people.
This does not strike me as a witch hunt for the sake of outraged victimhood, or striking out over jealousy like you’re describing.
I haven’t even seen him lose his temper, which as someone who has people I love who are trans, who I have watched deal with this shit, and seen what it does to them- I’m pretty sure I could not be similarly calm.
Probably this is because my head is not the one on the chopping block if we all decide TERFs are welcome here actually.
And my reactions aren’t the ones being picked apart to decide if I’ve brought up the issue of my own dehumanization respectfully enough to deserve being listened to.
If you want to discuss this with me, please do. But please lead with how you think all of this discussion will end, because I’m curious how you think we can solve the paradox of tolerance.
Hi @mainecoon76, I sympathize with your concern that call-out posts can sometimes be used to target people who haven’t done anything wrong. But I think that’s why @lie-where-i-land used screenshots - so people can make up their own minds. You mentioned that it’s concerning when people reblog call-out posts without actually knowing what happened. I agree; that’s why I think including screenshots is a reasonable thing to do.
When person A says, “Hey, you did something that hurt me,” person B will usually feel uncomfortable. It would be hard not to. That doesn’t mean person A is attacking person B. In this case, @lie-where-i-land has made an effort to discuss this topic with a lot of people, calmly, rationally, while providing sources, and has, from my point of view, been met with some responses from people that were either off-topic, missing the point, or minimizing the issue. I think many of these people engaging in discussions with @lie-where-i-land do mean well and don’t want to cause offense or cause harm. But they haven’t yet come to the understanding that including transphobes in the fandom community makes it harder for trans people to be part of the fandom community, and that is harmful.
I’ll admit I’m a bit confused by your stance, because you say that call-out posts are “poison,” but your post can be read like a call-out post aimed at @lie-where-i-land as well, since you say he’s “attacking” people. You’re encouraging reflection and discussion, but that’s exactly what has been going on, and what he has screenshotted in his posts on this very issue. These are the discussions about how to make fandom a safe space for trans people. Making fandom safer for trans people is exactly why @lie-where-i-land informed cycas in the first place that cycas had reblogged a post from a known TERF, and asked that people not boost transphobes’ blogs.
You wrote above, “Let’s not spread hatred and contempt.” That’s actually the whole point of what @lie-where-i-land has been saying. Transphobes spread hatred and contempt in the fandom. When trans people stand up for themselves and say, “please don’t give transphobes a platform,” that is not spreading hatred. That’s just them trying to be part of the fan community like everybody else.
@aragornsrockcollection: thanks for bringing up the paradox of tolerance. I couldn’t have put it better myself.
You know, what’s happening here right now is actually proving my point. People reblog it and are enraged about transphobia while my post… wasn’t about transphobia. I made no single comment about transphobia. There’s literally no way to deduce my stance on terfs from this post.
It was solely about the way callouts encourage mob mentality, quod erat demonstrandum.
I did consider whether or nor my post was a “callout”, but decided to approach the subject - very politely - because the damage had already been done in a very public way, and I was trying to undo a bit of it. If you’d check the comments, people are already confusing someone who initially refused to cancel someone on the basis of an anon ask with someone who posted actual transphobic content. They are not the same. But these things happen when people run on emotions and cease to listen.
Because, excuse me, but the things @lie-where-i-land said were… Let’s say, worded in a way to stir up righteous anger in others. “You want us to shut up”, for instance, when that is simply not true and the opposite of what I asked for in my post.
I’m disheartened to see that said post is now used to stir the anger further, instead of calming everything down. Not by you, specifically; I’m simply answering you now because you tagged me, and I don’t feel like reading everything else.
@aragornsrockcollection Yes, thank you, I’m familiar with the paradox of tolerance. I’m a social scientist and have been working in the field of social justice for years. My main field of expertise is ableism, but intersectionality means I’m dealing with transphobia, homophobia, racism and all that other assholery on a regular basis.
Which means that all those righteous people here are now attacking someone who is professionally - and with passion - fighting on their side. In real life. You know, the place where it makes an actual difference. There’s irony in that, don’t you think?
It also means that I have some experience in what does or doesn’t work against people like terfs. I know righteous anger, believe me, and it’s important because it gives us courage. (In real life. You need no courage to hurt people online.)
But I’ve also been at a place where I let anger cloud my judgement, and I’m grateful for the people who helped me keep my wits together. Wits are crucial because otherwise you may make mistakes … like fighting the wrong folk, as one example of many. Lashing out at people who are on your own side just because you are too angry to try to understand them hurts the cause.
@lie-where-i-land : contact me if you like, we can talk. Honestly, I’d like to work this out. Apart from that, I’m going to turn off the notifications for this post. I’m busy fighting assholes in real life and can’t let people who insist on misunderstanding me control my attention.
My point still stands, though.
@mainecoon76 You may not see my reply, since you’ve turned off notifications. That’s alright. Still, I thought I would respond.
Your post may not have mentioned transphobia, but transphobia isthe reason we’re all having this conversation in the first place. I have not tried to deduce your stance on terfs.
It sounds like you feel that lie-where-i-land worded his posts in a way that would stir up righteous anger in others, but… again, one could say the same of your original post. You brought up the cancellation of someone you cared about, who you feel was wrongly accused of racism, who you say was “violently bullied,” and compared it to the situation at hand. I know nothing about madamefaust, but it seems like an entirely different situation than this one. Venwe actually isa terf, which can be seen on her blog, so it’s not some sort of unfair attempt at cancellation to ask people to stop boosting her posts. Nor have I seen anyone bullied since this conversation began some days ago. (Correct me if I’m wrong.)
I did check the comments, and yes, one single person confused venwe with cycas. That’s certainly unfortunate, but it’s hardly the fault of anyone else, though, and that person quickly corrected it. That misconception seems to have ended as quickly as it began; it didn’t spiral out of control. I don’t see any “mob mentality” unfolding around this issue.
“Which means that all those righteous people here are now attacking someone who is professionally - and with passion - fighting on their side. In real life.” I’m genuinely confused by this bit that you wrote, because you seem to be referring to yourself, but I haven’t seen anyone attacking you on this post? You’ve turned off replies, so most people can’t reply to this post - are people attacking you on anon? It doesn’t look like you allow anonymous asks on your blog.
I see that you want to calm things down instead of inflaming them, which I appreciate, but I think the way to go about that would not be to claim lie-where-i-land “attacked” others - he didn’t - or to compare this situation to one that has nothing to do with it (madamefaust) - that certainly inflamed the issue further. You seem to want to have people resolve these issues by “limiting it to a discussion among individuals” (that’s what you wrote in the original post), but again, you didn’t do that - you made your own post as well. To be clear, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you making your own post. But it seems like a case of “do as I say, not as I do.”
I am glad you’re open to discussion on this. I may message you, I may not. I personally prefer to conduct these sorts of discussions via reblogs because the chat window is so tiny, and it becomes difficult to conduct longer conversations that way.
Hey, for some reason I’m still getting notifications and yes, the open hostility is getting to me. The situation is now at a point where I’m considering to leave for a while. You seem like a sensible person, so I thought I might as well reply. But I’m tired.
I think what many people aren’t getting is that I was never talking about venwe. I’m talking about cycas, mostly. She’s a friend. I’ve known her for many years. She’s not a terf, and not someone who sympathizes with terfs, just - as I’ve gotten to know her - a person who likes to really understand and consider what do, and not blindly react to anon asks.
Which, in this case, was enough to make her end up in a callout post. And no, I don’t think the confusion is a singular thing. As I said, I’m a social scientist; these things happen frequently. Lumping people into categories and labelling them regardless of what the person is actually like is a very common thing, obviously. If people get emotional, the nuance gets lost. The will to understand gets lost.
Madamefaustwas violently bullied, if you search for her username, you’ll find the whole story. In the end, after she had left, it turned out that the accusations were unfounded, andif there was a misunderstanding it was certainly nothing that couldn’t have cleared up in a single conversation. The persons who started the bullying did this to others too, including PoC. They made a blacklist of persons who shouldn’t be interacted with, and friends of those persons. After the whole thing blew up, they left the fandom. It was a truly ugly business, and people got hurt very badly.
This is the reason why I’m saying “we should not allow such a thing ever again. Please don’t make callout posts.” But that was literally all I was saying, and I was saying it very politely. That’s also why I was making my own post - because people had already been called out, and as I said, I was trying to minimize the damage. For some reason I hoped people would listen. I’ve come to know the fandom as an open-minded and friendly place.
Look what’s happening now. I don’t excuse terfs, never have. I’m professionally working for social justice. We are on the same side when it comes to trans issues. Now cycas and I - and the few people who take the pains to try and understand what we were actually saying - are labeled as transphobes, and invited to fuck off. This is precisely what I meant: people are not trying to have a conversation. They don’t even know us; they judge from what they think they understand, which is not what we said, or meant. It’s incredibly destructive. Maybe I was hoping, at some point, that someone would say “shit I think we overreacted”, but… well. Not going to happen.
I’m sorry that is your experience. I’m assuming the “open hostility” you’re referring to is that you feel that you and cycas have been labelled as transphobes? I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from, because you mention “open hostility” at the beginning of the post, and the other thing at the end…
I actually did figure you were partly talking about cycas at least in part. Here’s the thing: I wouldn’t say that cycas has been cancelled. She said some things, publicly, that rubbed some people the wrong way. That’s all. That’s my interpretation, anyway. I read her response to lie-where-i-land’s initial anon ask. What she wrote did not sit well with me. Do I think cycas is a terrible, evil person? No, I don’t. Do I think she is as bad as venwe? No. But I thought her response to the ask was ill-considered, and if I had been following her, I would have hit unfollow at that point. Still - not really a case of being cancelled. Or maybe some people do consider her “cancelled.” I don’t know.
I doubt that most people following this issue think that venwe and cycas are equally bad. I’ve literally had venwe blocked for years - so have many others; whereas cycas is just somebody in the fandom I knew of but didn’t follow. However, I think there is a very real frustration that people have - myself included - when people who say they support trans issues still say stuff along the lines of, “Well, we can’t exclude transphobes like venwe from the fandom, because… [insert reason here]”. This reframes transphobia as some sort of run-of-the-mill fandom disagreement, instead of a hateful ideology that does direct harm to people.
The thing is, I agree with cycas that the fandom is an international, multilingual and multicultural space. I agree with her that you can’t assume people will come to the fandom with the same background as you. And, like cycas, I do not only follow blogs with whom I agree. But. In the context of venwe specifically, I think these points were ill-considered, and I’ll explain a little bit more as to why.
To me, following people I disagree with means, for example, following people who are fans of a character I dislike, or have different interpretations of stuff, not… following people who actively hate minority groups.
If I met somebody and, let’s say, due to their background (different generation, maybe, different upbringing, etc.), they didn’t know anything about trans issues, and they had sort of outdated ideas about the gender binary and whatnot? I wouldn’t block them, I wouldn’t assume the worst about them - people are at varying degrees of understanding and knowledge on this stuff. It’s hatefulnessthat is a problem. People who are misinformed can learn. But people who are actively hateful - well, it’s not a simple case of giving them the right info, you have to explain to them how to care about other people, and that’s very hard. I’m going somewhere with this, I promise…
The point is, I’ve looked at many of venwe’s posts. She does not fit the description of someone who, through no fault of her own, has slightly outdated beliefs, or the wrong information, or something. She strikes me as an actively hateful person. She has made or reblogged offensive and mean jokes about trans people, and stereotyped trans people as predators, and things like that. There are some people in the world who just don’t have a lot of knowledge about trans issues. But then there are some people in the world who actually revelin punching down at trans people. Venwe is the latter. So that’swhy bringing up the idea that “well, there are people with all sorts of different backgrounds in fandom, there are people with all kinds of different ideas in the fandom” is, to me, not helpful or relevant when talking about venwe. I hope that makes sense.
I know this may not seem relevant, but I wrote all of this because I guess the bottom line is this: cycas defending venwe as somebody who justhappens to be misinformed or unaware of things for whatever reason, is inaccurate. Cycas - and others who share her viewpoints - may consider themselves trans allies, but to many of us, this isn’t what allyship looks like. If anybody is calling cycas a transphobe now, that’s why. It does lack nuance, yes, in the sense that cycas isn’t the same as venwe, as I said earlier. But this is how we got here.
It sounds like you’re concerned that you and people like cycas are being branded as transphobes, and you feel that’s unfair. (I’m still not clear on how many people have actually branded you that way, though). I can understand that that would be upsetting, since you work for social justice. I guess what it boils down to, for me, is this: labels aside, cycas did, in her own away, defend a terf, and that’s really discouraging and upsetting to those of us in the fandom who would rather create an inclusive space for trans people. We’re now having a conversation that is basically, “does cycas deserve to be cancelled? do you (mainecoon76) deserve to be cancelled?” and like… I’m not interested in those questions. I’m interested in how to make fandom a safer space for trans people. And if everybody could collectively notmake excuses for people like venwe, it would be a start. (Not you - I don’t think you made excuses for venwe - but others have.)
OK, I need to say something about fan culture. No idea if anyone’s gonna listen, but I do feel faintly sick.
How do we, as a fandom, want to treat each other?
Around a year ago, a writer I cared about - madamefaust - was violently bullied out of another fandom and deleted everything she had made. All her works, her entire tumblr. It turned out she had been falsely accused of racism by a group of trolls who… Oh, I’m not going to start this again, read it up on my tumblr if you’re interested. The point is, she hadn’t actually been racist. The reason for this entire charade was envy, and it destroyed her online presence. She cut all ties, so we don’t even know she’s ok.
The way it happened - and I’m getting to the point here - were callout posts which dragged her name across the entire fandom, instead of limiting it to a discussion among individuals. Look, everyone, what she did! Here are screenshots! And then the next person chimes in, HOW DARE YOU, you should be ashamed! There’s no way to defend yourself, if such a thing has started. People read and reblog and judge without actually knowing what happened.
Which is why I would like to say, very emphatically, to @lie-where-i-land: Please do not handle it this way. I understand your point, but the way you’re attacking @cycasand@warrioreowynofrohan (who, for context, opposed the ‘cancellation’ of someone you believe to be a terf) for all the fandom to see, screenshotting their post, inviting everyone to add pressure on them, is not the way to handle fandom conflicts. Many of us around here are old enough to have seen fandom wars, and we don’t want them anymore. Let’s not spread hatred and contempt. There’s enough of that in the world right now.
If you want to express your concerns about transphobia and terfs in fandom, please do! I’m sure most of us will be interested and willing to reflect, engage in discussion, work out ways to make fandom a safe space for trans people. But callout posts of that sort are poison. Please don’t do this.
I want to have that discussion about transphobia in fandom.
But how do you expect it to go? That we all reflect on it and discuss it, and there will magically appear a way to make fandom a safe space for trans people without banning transphobic people?
Because what we are discussing here is the Paradox of Tolerance. I recommend googling it, it is a philosophical argument that has been around for a really long time but was codified in the 40’s by someone named Karl Popper.
The paradox goes like this: “In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must remain intolerant of intolerance.”
And it’s just true. You can’t invite two parties to a table for a good faith discussion when the central tenant of one of those parties is that the other should not exist.
TERFs or “gender critical people” or “anti- trans rights activists” or “I don’t understand what TERF even is, I just believe *insert transphobic statement here* people” being accepted into this community makes it an inherently dangerous and toxic place for Trans people.
If what you want to discuss is “is Venwe a TERF?” you don’t have to take anyone’s word for it. Check out her blog. I did. I found TERF content. I blocked her.
I am grateful for the heads up! I have been being recommended TERF posts by tumblr recently, which greatly upset me and was a negative impact on my experience here, and I couldn’t figure out why. I interacted with Venwe’s blog when she reblogged one of my posts, just about when that started happening. Hopefully it will stop now. I doubt it’ll be that simple, but I’d rather live in hope.
And, to clarify, I’m cis. Transphobia makes me angry, but I don’t feel gut dropping fear when I see it, I don’t feel personally attacked, I don’t have to question whether I can even stay in this community, or if it’s about to be flooded by people who are hostile to me personally.
I don’t have to worry that the place I go online to have fun and engage in my interests with like-minded individuals will suddenly decide that blatently hating me, and people like me, is more okay than pointing out that that hate exists, which is what is happening right now.
@lie-where-i-land didn’t bring this issue up randomly out of nowhere, he wasn’t responding to just seeing venwe’s name on his dash, he was informing @cycas of the nature of a user that @cycas had actively boosted with a reblog of a request from Venwe to get back in touch with the community on here.
And then he has responded reasonably. Honestly, I’m confused why you’re begging for discourse and discussion… there is SO MUCH discussion happening. I see @lie-where-i-land working really hard to inform people about why including TERFs pose a threat to the diversity of our fandom, providing a lot of explainations to a lot of people.
This does not strike me as a witch hunt for the sake of outraged victimhood, or striking out over jealousy like you’re describing.
I haven’t even seen him lose his temper, which as someone who has people I love who are trans, who I have watched deal with this shit, and seen what it does to them- I’m pretty sure I could not be similarly calm.
Probably this is because my head is not the one on the chopping block if we all decide TERFs are welcome here actually.
And my reactions aren’t the ones being picked apart to decide if I’ve brought up the issue of my own dehumanization respectfully enough to deserve being listened to.
If you want to discuss this with me, please do. But please lead with how you think all of this discussion will end, because I’m curious how you think we can solve the paradox of tolerance.
Hi @mainecoon76, I sympathize with your concern that call-out posts can sometimes be used to target people who haven’t done anything wrong. But I think that’s why @lie-where-i-land used screenshots - so people can make up their own minds. You mentioned that it’s concerning when people reblog call-out posts without actually knowing what happened. I agree; that’s why I think including screenshots is a reasonable thing to do.
When person A says, “Hey, you did something that hurt me,” person B will usually feel uncomfortable. It would be hard not to. That doesn’t mean person A is attacking person B. In this case, @lie-where-i-land has made an effort to discuss this topic with a lot of people, calmly, rationally, while providing sources, and has, from my point of view, been met with some responses from people that were either off-topic, missing the point, or minimizing the issue. I think many of these people engaging in discussions with @lie-where-i-land do mean well and don’t want to cause offense or cause harm. But they haven’t yet come to the understanding that including transphobes in the fandom community makes it harder for trans people to be part of the fandom community, and that is harmful.
I’ll admit I’m a bit confused by your stance, because you say that call-out posts are “poison,” but your post can be read like a call-out post aimed at @lie-where-i-land as well, since you say he’s “attacking” people. You’re encouraging reflection and discussion, but that’s exactly what has been going on, and what he has screenshotted in his posts on this very issue. These are the discussions about how to make fandom a safe space for trans people. Making fandom safer for trans people is exactly why @lie-where-i-land informed cycas in the first place that cycas had reblogged a post from a known TERF, and asked that people not boost transphobes’ blogs.
You wrote above, “Let’s not spread hatred and contempt.” That’s actually the whole point of what @lie-where-i-land has been saying. Transphobes spread hatred and contempt in the fandom. When trans people stand up for themselves and say, “please don’t give transphobes a platform,” that is not spreading hatred. That’s just them trying to be part of the fan community like everybody else.
@aragornsrockcollection: thanks for bringing up the paradox of tolerance. I couldn’t have put it better myself.
You know, what’s happening here right now is actually proving my point. People reblog it and are enraged about transphobia while my post… wasn’t about transphobia. I made no single comment about transphobia. There’s literally no way to deduce my stance on terfs from this post.
It was solely about the way callouts encourage mob mentality, quod erat demonstrandum.
I did consider whether or nor my post was a “callout”, but decided to approach the subject - very politely - because the damage had already been done in a very public way, and I was trying to undo a bit of it. If you’d check the comments, people are already confusing someone who initially refused to cancel someone on the basis of an anon ask with someone who posted actual transphobic content. They are not the same. But these things happen when people run on emotions and cease to listen.
Because, excuse me, but the things @lie-where-i-land said were… Let’s say, worded in a way to stir up righteous anger in others. “You want us to shut up”, for instance, when that is simply not true and the opposite of what I asked for in my post.
I’m disheartened to see that said post is now used to stir the anger further, instead of calming everything down. Not by you, specifically; I’m simply answering you now because you tagged me, and I don’t feel like reading everything else.
@aragornsrockcollection Yes, thank you, I’m familiar with the paradox of tolerance. I’m a social scientist and have been working in the field of social justice for years. My main field of expertise is ableism, but intersectionality means I’m dealing with transphobia, homophobia, racism and all that other assholery on a regular basis.
Which means that all those righteous people here are now attacking someone who is professionally - and with passion - fighting on their side. In real life. You know, the place where it makes an actual difference. There’s irony in that, don’t you think?
It also means that I have some experience in what does or doesn’t work against people like terfs. I know righteous anger, believe me, and it’s important because it gives us courage. (In real life. You need no courage to hurt people online.)
But I’ve also been at a place where I let anger cloud my judgement, and I’m grateful for the people who helped me keep my wits together. Wits are crucial because otherwise you may make mistakes … like fighting the wrong folk, as one example of many. Lashing out at people who are on your own side just because you are too angry to try to understand them hurts the cause.
@lie-where-i-land : contact me if you like, we can talk. Honestly, I’d like to work this out. Apart from that, I’m going to turn off the notifications for this post. I’m busy fighting assholes in real life and can’t let people who insist on misunderstanding me control my attention.
My point still stands, though.
@mainecoon76 You may not see my reply, since you’ve turned off notifications. That’s alright. Still, I thought I would respond.
Your post may not have mentioned transphobia, but transphobia isthe reason we’re all having this conversation in the first place. I have not tried to deduce your stance on terfs.
It sounds like you feel that lie-where-i-land worded his posts in a way that would stir up righteous anger in others, but… again, one could say the same of your original post. You brought up the cancellation of someone you cared about, who you feel was wrongly accused of racism, who you say was “violently bullied,” and compared it to the situation at hand. I know nothing about madamefaust, but it seems like an entirely different situation than this one. Venwe actually isa terf, which can be seen on her blog, so it’s not some sort of unfair attempt at cancellation to ask people to stop boosting her posts. Nor have I seen anyone bullied since this conversation began some days ago. (Correct me if I’m wrong.)
I did check the comments, and yes, one single person confused venwe with cycas. That’s certainly unfortunate, but it’s hardly the fault of anyone else, though, and that person quickly corrected it. That misconception seems to have ended as quickly as it began; it didn’t spiral out of control. I don’t see any “mob mentality” unfolding around this issue.
“Which means that all those righteous people here are now attacking someone who is professionally - and with passion - fighting on their side. In real life.” I’m genuinely confused by this bit that you wrote, because you seem to be referring to yourself, but I haven’t seen anyone attacking you on this post? You’ve turned off replies, so most people can’t reply to this post - are people attacking you on anon? It doesn’t look like you allow anonymous asks on your blog.
I see that you want to calm things down instead of inflaming them, which I appreciate, but I think the way to go about that would not be to claim lie-where-i-land “attacked” others - he didn’t - or to compare this situation to one that has nothing to do with it (madamefaust) - that certainly inflamed the issue further. You seem to want to have people resolve these issues by “limiting it to a discussion among individuals” (that’s what you wrote in the original post), but again, you didn’t do that - you made your own post as well. To be clear, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you making your own post. But it seems like a case of “do as I say, not as I do.”
I am glad you’re open to discussion on this. I may message you, I may not. I personally prefer to conduct these sorts of discussions via reblogs because the chat window is so tiny, and it becomes difficult to conduct longer conversations that way.
OK, I need to say something about fan culture. No idea if anyone’s gonna listen, but I do feel faintly sick.
How do we, as a fandom, want to treat each other?
Around a year ago, a writer I cared about - madamefaust - was violently bullied out of another fandom and deleted everything she had made. All her works, her entire tumblr. It turned out she had been falsely accused of racism by a group of trolls who… Oh, I’m not going to start this again, read it up on my tumblr if you’re interested. The point is, she hadn’t actually been racist. The reason for this entire charade was envy, and it destroyed her online presence. She cut all ties, so we don’t even know she’s ok.
The way it happened - and I’m getting to the point here - were callout posts which dragged her name across the entire fandom, instead of limiting it to a discussion among individuals. Look, everyone, what she did! Here are screenshots! And then the next person chimes in, HOW DARE YOU, you should be ashamed! There’s no way to defend yourself, if such a thing has started. People read and reblog and judge without actually knowing what happened.
Which is why I would like to say, very emphatically, to @lie-where-i-land: Please do not handle it this way. I understand your point, but the way you’re attacking @cycasand@warrioreowynofrohan (who, for context, opposed the ‘cancellation’ of someone you believe to be a terf) for all the fandom to see, screenshotting their post, inviting everyone to add pressure on them, is not the way to handle fandom conflicts. Many of us around here are old enough to have seen fandom wars, and we don’t want them anymore. Let’s not spread hatred and contempt. There’s enough of that in the world right now.
If you want to express your concerns about transphobia and terfs in fandom, please do! I’m sure most of us will be interested and willing to reflect, engage in discussion, work out ways to make fandom a safe space for trans people. But callout posts of that sort are poison. Please don’t do this.
I want to have that discussion about transphobia in fandom.
But how do you expect it to go? That we all reflect on it and discuss it, and there will magically appear a way to make fandom a safe space for trans people without banning transphobic people?
Because what we are discussing here is the Paradox of Tolerance. I recommend googling it, it is a philosophical argument that has been around for a really long time but was codified in the 40’s by someone named Karl Popper.
The paradox goes like this: “In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must remain intolerant of intolerance.”
And it’s just true. You can’t invite two parties to a table for a good faith discussion when the central tenant of one of those parties is that the other should not exist.
TERFs or “gender critical people” or “anti- trans rights activists” or “I don’t understand what TERF even is, I just believe *insert transphobic statement here* people” being accepted into this community makes it an inherently dangerous and toxic place for Trans people.
If what you want to discuss is “is Venwe a TERF?” you don’t have to take anyone’s word for it. Check out her blog. I did. I found TERF content. I blocked her.
I am grateful for the heads up! I have been being recommended TERF posts by tumblr recently, which greatly upset me and was a negative impact on my experience here, and I couldn’t figure out why. I interacted with Venwe’s blog when she reblogged one of my posts, just about when that started happening. Hopefully it will stop now. I doubt it’ll be that simple, but I’d rather live in hope.
And, to clarify, I’m cis. Transphobia makes me angry, but I don’t feel gut dropping fear when I see it, I don’t feel personally attacked, I don’t have to question whether I can even stay in this community, or if it’s about to be flooded by people who are hostile to me personally.
I don’t have to worry that the place I go online to have fun and engage in my interests with like-minded individuals will suddenly decide that blatently hating me, and people like me, is more okay than pointing out that that hate exists, which is what is happening right now.
@lie-where-i-land didn’t bring this issue up randomly out of nowhere, he wasn’t responding to just seeing venwe’s name on his dash, he was informing @cycas of the nature of a user that @cycas had actively boosted with a reblog of a request from Venwe to get back in touch with the community on here.
And then he has responded reasonably. Honestly, I’m confused why you’re begging for discourse and discussion… there is SO MUCH discussion happening. I see @lie-where-i-land working really hard to inform people about why including TERFs pose a threat to the diversity of our fandom, providing a lot of explainations to a lot of people.
This does not strike me as a witch hunt for the sake of outraged victimhood, or striking out over jealousy like you’re describing.
I haven’t even seen him lose his temper, which as someone who has people I love who are trans, who I have watched deal with this shit, and seen what it does to them- I’m pretty sure I could not be similarly calm.
Probably this is because my head is not the one on the chopping block if we all decide TERFs are welcome here actually.
And my reactions aren’t the ones being picked apart to decide if I’ve brought up the issue of my own dehumanization respectfully enough to deserve being listened to.
If you want to discuss this with me, please do. But please lead with how you think all of this discussion will end, because I’m curious how you think we can solve the paradox of tolerance.
Hi @mainecoon76, I sympathize with your concern that call-out posts can sometimes be used to target people who haven’t done anything wrong. But I think that’s why @lie-where-i-land used screenshots - so people can make up their own minds. You mentioned that it’s concerning when people reblog call-out posts without actually knowing what happened. I agree; that’s why I think including screenshots is a reasonable thing to do.
When person A says, “Hey, you did something that hurt me,” person B will usually feel uncomfortable. It would be hard not to. That doesn’t mean person A is attacking person B. In this case, @lie-where-i-land has made an effort to discuss this topic with a lot of people, calmly, rationally, while providing sources, and has, from my point of view, been met with some responses from people that were either off-topic, missing the point, or minimizing the issue. I think many of these people engaging in discussions with @lie-where-i-land do mean well and don’t want to cause offense or cause harm. But they haven’t yet come to the understanding that including transphobes in the fandom community makes it harder for trans people to be part of the fandom community, and that is harmful.
I’ll admit I’m a bit confused by your stance, because you say that call-out posts are “poison,” but your post can be read like a call-out post aimed at @lie-where-i-land as well, since you say he’s “attacking” people. You’re encouraging reflection and discussion, but that’s exactly what has been going on, and what he has screenshotted in his posts on this very issue. These are the discussions about how to make fandom a safe space for trans people. Making fandom safer for trans people is exactly why @lie-where-i-land informed cycas in the first place that cycas had reblogged a post from a known TERF, and asked that people not boost transphobes’ blogs.
You wrote above, “Let’s not spread hatred and contempt.” That’s actually the whole point of what @lie-where-i-land has been saying. Transphobes spread hatred and contempt in the fandom. When trans people stand up for themselves and say, “please don’t give transphobes a platform,” that is not spreading hatred. That’s just them trying to be part of the fan community like everybody else.
@aragornsrockcollection: thanks for bringing up the paradox of tolerance. I couldn’t have put it better myself.
Hi, I’m @lie-where-i-land (James, 20s, gay trans man). I’ve been thinking a lot recently about transphobia and trans allies in fandom spaces, and how people may pay us trans folks lip service but at the end of the day do little to support us. Yesterday was the final straw to break my back, shall we say.
A while ago, it came to the attention of multiple trans tolkien bloggers that one semi-prominent user, @venwe, was a terf. Most of us blocked and moved on. It appears that this user’s original blog, @venwe, was terminated by staff, as they reappeared under a different url (@suyao-supremacy) with a promotional post asking other big name silm bloggers to boost and help them regain their mutuals. I sent the following anon ask to @cycas, who had boosted the original promotional post.
Image Description: An anonymous tumblr ask to user Cycas that reads “Venwe (now suyao-supremacy) has been following and interacting with terfs for years. Their original blog was terminated but when it was around it was very easy to find receipts. The following list contained multiple terfs blogs and they posted some transphobic stuff in an argument a while back. Them trying to minimize it or brush it under the rug like “I don’t Hate trans people, I just think there’s an undeniable and dangerous difference between cis and trans women aha” is not cute. I have no receipts to send you because I don’t push callouts or cache dirt on people, but I am trans, and more than one trans friend of mine in this fandom has expressed concern over this user and their transphobic behavior, which seems to lie dormant for a while before cropping back up again (which is likely intentional as it allows them to fly under the radar).” (end image description)
@cycas responded below to me like this:
Image description: A text response by Cycas to the anon ask, which reads “Ok, look I’m going to answer this one publicly and, I hope, this will be an end to it even if the anons block me. Tolkien fandom is an international, multilingual, and multicultural space. Sometimes there are going to be people with different ideas, sometimes ideas that are odd, difficult, jarring, or unpleasant. You can’t assume people will be coming to stuff with the same background as you. I do not, on the whole, curate my tumblr feed to only people with whom I agree. That would take it down to a very small group and I don’t know how I would even begin to do that. I definitely don’t want to curate my tumblr feed according to the opinions of people who send me anon messages about who I should block. Venwe is not a celebrity with a huge influential following, and as such I don’t think should be the subject of campaigning of this kind. Block her if you don’t like her - I’d block anyone who upsets you, whether or not you actually interact with them or just saw them in passing - but please don’t tell me who I should interact with. I am old enough that I can remember when being able to chat with a Russian woman about things we agree or disagree about was impossible. I can remember the first Russian fans coming to the UK to talk about how they had discovered Tolkien, and what an absolutely amazing moment that was, way back in the early 90s, that we were all able to share these books. And now the peace we all hoped for so desperately is over and I don’t know where to begin about that. I’m betting you are young enough that you don’t know what you are asking me when you say ‘stop talking to a Russian woman because I think that they say the wrong things.’ I’m not dismissing your concerns (of the Ukraine war) and nor so far as I can see is Venwe). And I’m sorry to hurt your feelings, but I’m not going to do what you say on this one.” (end image description)
@cycas tagged the post saying any further conversation needed to be done off anon. I was incredibly hesitant about this because I feared onlookers would put transphobic stuff in my inbox, but the response above was such a bad faith interpretation of what I’d actually written that I felt the need to clear the air. So, I reblogged the post with my addition below:
Image Description: A text reblog from lie-where-i-land, which reads “To be very clear, I’m not dressing some weird Russophobia up in some pro-trans trappings. I am a trans man. As I said before, I have had venwe blocked for over a year now for their overt following of radfems (inside and outside the Tolkien fandom) and some unsavory transphobic debate on their blog. I do not stalk blogs that I have blocked because I find that sort of internet behavior troublesome, unethical, and harmful to my mental health. Any comments that they have made regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I have not heard. Firstly, I have them blocked, and secondly, staff torpedoed their blog so I couldn’t find the comments even if I wanted to.
I am wondering if you have received messages from more than just me? Because I did not mention venwes nationality in this message or the follow up that I sent. I can see why you thought I might be motivated by venwe being Russian, but I couldn’t help but feel that you read something into this that I didn’t say, put words in my mouth, and spun this as me trying to isolate and alienate random Russians online. It makes you seem like the charitable and good hearted fandom participant, and me like some sort of miserly buzzkill.
I think we both know that this is not a case of “don’t talk to this Russian lady bc Russian cooties.” I think you’re right in saying that part of what makes the Tolkien fandom great is the depth and international breadth of its roots. My mutuals and I are from every corner of the globe, and I think that makes our friendship better not worse. And no, i don’t agree with them on everything (concerning Tolkien or offline matters). I find that maintaining a friendship with someone from a wildly different background mostly comes down to open mindedness, willingness to listen, taking things with good faith, and asking clarifying questions. As such, when my international friends have challenged my views or beliefs, we’ve managed to remain friends.
Posting transphobic rhetoric, following radfems, and being part of a circle of transphobes that operate within the tolkien fandom is not “having a difference of opinion.” I don’t need someone to have the same background as me, or to be knowledgeable in the same way I am knowledgeable. My grandmother is old, transphobic in the way much of her generation is, and her opinions like “[she] doesn’t care who uses the ladies’ room as long as no one pisses on the floor” are not PC. Her fumbling attempts at progress are done in better faith than the people on here that try to draw borders to distinguish perpetual man and perpetual woman, perpetual patriarch and perpetual victim, as if trans people are (depending on what is rhetorically suitable) dangerous invaders in need of purging or misguided mental degenerates in need of salvation.
I don’t comb through the blog of everyone that interacts with me on the off chance they might be “problematique.” I dont expect that level of effort from anyone. At best, I give new followers a cursory glance to their bio and top three posts. However, I think it is pretty reasonable that I don’t follow terfs or reblog from radfems in the fandom because “it’s not a post about radfeminism.” This is a pretty standard rule of thumb followed by every trans person I know. Why? You’re right, venwe is not a big platform influencer. But I am a trans man. I post something, an ally reblogs it, their follower is a somewhat stealthy terf and reblogs it, their followers are terfs and now I have terfs in my inbox. The silm fandom is small enough as it is. Terfs find blogs like mine in large part because “allies” overlook radfem rhetoric as a difference of opinion.
This fandom is either friendly to trans people or it’s friendly to terfs. If it’s friendly to both, then don’t be surprised if your circle ends up just being terfs, because trans people won’t stick around for long like this. No, i don’t need to follow you, or boost your content. Please then, do trans people the courtesy of not reblogging our content if you’re hiding terfs in your coattails.” (end image description)
@cycas did not reblog my addition, either to not draw more attention to their words or to avoid drawing attention specifically to my rebuttal. Instead Cycas replied in the comments, which you can see below:
Image Description: A reply in the notes of the original post, by cycas to lie-where-i-land, which reads “I assume the account was removed because it had a Russian IP and was posting about Ukraine. I very much sympathize with your position, but to me it seems that being a progressive Russian lesbian wondering whether to risk imprisonment and worse at a demo isn’t easy either. I shared the post because I was asked to do so, and I don’t really think that counts as putting anyone at risk, except possibly for venwe.” (end image description)
So there was no acknowledgement from cycas that they had been and continued to be (as visible from their following lists - though venwe/suyao-supremacy’s has now been hastily privated) mutuals with a terf. They continue to run with the false claim that this is beef because of the russian invasion. And they double down on how the only one at risk here is venwe, not any of the trans tolkien fans that they are now introducing to a terf’s blog through a promotional post. I screenshotted the reply and attached it to a second reblog which is below:
Image Description: A text reblog by lie-where-i-land that reads “Cycas, again, I have no knowledge of venwe’s stance on the current invasion of Ukraine. I find it somewhat unlikely that her blog was terminated for having a Russian IP when there are other Russian silm bloggers currently living in Russia that are currently active. On the other hand, lots of people have know about her being a radfem for a year now, and while I dislike speculation, that was my initial suspicion for the termination of her blog. I sympathize with anyone who is caught between wanting to demonstrate against imperialism and the knowledge that they may be in grave danger if they do so. My initial message, and my reply above, had nothing to do with venwes nationality. I am sort of frustrated at this implicit “I see how trans ppl are a target, but consider that being a Russian lesbian is dangerous too… so.” It’s possible to be marginalized and still do harm to other marginalized people.
When I talk about harm: I’m not saying you knowingly promoted a radfem because you’re in cahoots or something. But you didn’t ask for proof, you didn’t ask if any of your other followers had seen venwe’s radfem rhetoric, you immediately assumed the worst faith position possible. boosting the new traction post from a terminated radfem helps that radfem gain back their follower base. It’s handing someone the keys to your metaphorical house. The more people that give radfems the fandom house keys, the more visible and vulnerable trans tolkien bloggers are. I don’t Want to post about my life or my trans tolkien content for my followers to reblog when I know there are cryptoterfs that are mutuals with some of you, terfs who will be reading about my personal life, climbing into my inbox, making me and my friends feel unsafe and unwelcome. Now, terfs are perfectly capable of combing trans tags for my blog. But being mutuals with them hands them a list of queer and trans bloggers, wrapped with a pretty bow.Either this fandom is safe for trans people or it’s safe for terfs.” (end image description)
I am at this point past my image limit, but I wanted to share some words from @warrioreowynofrohan, who commented in support of cycas on the initial post. The screenshot and my reply are available herefor proof.
Warrioreowynofrohan: thumbs up emoji. the new attitude of you should never communicate with or even read anything said by anyone who disagrees with you on anything of substance is deeply destructive and harmful. If people want to curate their own social media experience selectively, that’s their own choice; but they have no right to demand/pressure that everyone else do the same.
my response from the comments: this was specifically about people being friends with terfs. I’m friends with lots of people that I disagree with on one thing or another. Taking a look at what the radfems are saying so you can stay abreast of the situation is really not the same as boosting a radfems promo post. Being friends with radfems and letting them into fandom bc their meta is good puts trans ppl at risk. Yall can choose your terf friendships over trans friendships if you like tho.
I’m a queer trans man. I am no stranger to the shadowy campaigns against bloggers for being the wrong flavor of queer or doing fandom in a way someone else doesn’t like. I think it is incredibly disrespectful to the queer bloggers that got harassed and are still getting harassed to the point of leaving this site to draw deliberate comparisons here in defense of a terf. People like terfs, exclusionists, and X Critical folks regularly deride and attack bloggers like me. Saying that you won’t allow bigots in your circle is a good thing actually.
Curating your social media to your “personal preference” is something like me choosing not to follow people that vehemently hate the noldor or who call elwing a bad mom.
Unfollowing and blocking bigots is not a matter of “personal preference,” it’s a matter of keeping your marginalized friends safe.
Final Thoughts:
I don’t hold any anger or suspicion toward people that have followed venwe/suyao-supremacy in the past. I know lots of people have had interesting, friendly, and rather innocent conversations with them (at one point, they were rather prolific on here). It’s hard to tell if someone is a terf masquerading as a friendly blog. And I don’t think the solution is to fall into paranoia, scrutinizing every acquaintance for rotten subtext! I just wish more people would appraise themselves of the base tenets of radfem rhetoric so that they can identify it when it crops up, and either re-educate or block the user it’s coming from.
Honestly, I don’t know where to go from here. I don’t want any hate or rude words sent to those involved. But I feel apprehensive about the state of this fandom. I wonder how many people saw this exchange yesterday and said nothing. I am not even so much interested in venwe/suyao-supremacy, who will no doubt slip up again and present us with more terf evidence. The verdict has already been dealt, months ago, on that account. I am far more interested in such people in this fandom who prefer to befriend terfs over trans folks.
[this is the most updated version of this reblog, to correct formatting and add more information]
Venwe came to my attention March 6th 2021. The post below was long before the russian invasion of ukraine and should at least prove that fandom skepticism about venwe’s intentions are not based in russophobia as @cycas seems to claim. It’s screenshotted so I can blot out the op.
ImageDescription: a text post from a tumblr user that reads “It has come to my attention that a Tolkien/The Silmarillion blog that reposted my ableism in COH post is a known TERF and SWERF and as a trans person I’m baffled cause a) I literally have the trans flag as the background for my PFP b) I have my pronouns on my bio and c) I have the ️⚧️ emoji on my bio too like… okayyy. Anyways, I have blocked them and will be deleting my reblog to their response.I thought about making a call out post but then I remembered how I got harassed by TERFs for years on this hellsite so um. This is kind of a callout post, kind of not? If you want to block that blog if you’re a trans person and/or a trans ally check out the link I posted, and feel free to DM me if you want some evidence. The trans person that let me know showed me some but again, I don’t fancy getting harassed by TERFs on this fine evening so uh. Not gonna do that cause um. Yeah I just got my first anon hate on my personal blog and I’d rather not get back to the old times of getting mass anon hate and cyberbullying by TERFs and transphobes.This should also go to say that if you’re a TERF and/or a transphobe as a trans person I don’t want you near my blog. I know this is a fandom blog, but I don’t care. That didn’t stop TERFs and transphobes from sending death threats and calling me slurs on my fandom blog two years ago, so uh, just, if you’re a TERF, transphobe, or bigot of any other kind, (gif of gandalf saying ‘you shall not pass’)” (end image description
The links go to venwe’s deleted blog but the post about ableism in the Children of Hurin (from January 15, 2021) can be found in a three-part set of screenshots that I have located, which venwe had indeed commented on like the op said. See below:
ImageDescription: A set of three screenshots dated January 15th 2021, by the same author that wrote the later March 6th 2021 post about Venwe. The first two images are of the op’s meta on ableism in tolkien’s work the Children of Hurin, specifically regarding Brandir and Turin and ableism about physical deformities. The third shows venwe’s reply to the op, sandwiched before the one from user fortuitousraven. Venwe’s reblog contains nothing transphobic, and is a good discussion of ableism.” (end image description)
I’m sorry for not transcribing the whole post about ableism, but it’s very long and the detailed content is not at all related to the body of my post. I only included it to establish that venwe had indeed interacted on the post the op specified, in the manner that op specified. I would have just included the links for you but I didn’t want to open the op up to any renewed harassment.
I feel like the nature of posts like this are actually a good thing to talk about. There was no terf rhetoric in venwe’s reply to the children of hurin post. Nothing would clue you into it from seeing her casual interactions with people on here. Then posts like the one I referenced blow up, get a lot of traction, and new followers come to the blogs involved. When that blog is run by a terf, this increases the pool of people they can begin introducing to radfem rhetoric.
I can demonstrate this is the case with venwe’s blog. I was not satisfied with a vague text post with no concrete evidence, with now broken links. I did some more digging, and found a pretty damning screenshot from December 2021.
ImageDescription: a tumblr ask sent by lesbiansforboromir to the blog tolkien-meta-library. The ask from lesbiansforboromir reads “hey there, just thought I should give a heads up as per your pinned post, one of your followers, url venwe, is a terf and you may want to block them. Their answer to my most recent ask is pretty revealing without context.”
Tolkien-meta-library replied “oh no… I’ve been following them for ages :(”
The screenshot t-m-l included of venwe’s transphobia is of a text post from venwe that reads “I… I really don’t understand why you keep assuming I am talking about trans women (i.e. male individuals with gender dysphoria) when I’m not? I’m literally talking about males (as in, in general) who claim to be women and then make attempts to shut down discussions of sex-specific issues (like period stigma, sex exploitation, systemic medical neglect, domestic abuse, abortion ban, diet culture, commodification of bodies, honor killings etc etc) or disregard the notion of sex based oppression. I have no idea if they are dysphoric or not! In fact, it’s entirely possible that most of them don’t actually identify as women and only treat that as either a fetish, or a way to get quick clout on the internet (or both). I mean, if you stick to the concept of a self-ID and a woman is “whoever calls themselves a woman” then there’s virtually no difference between those two groups, so that may have led you to misinterpret my words. But I do think some kind of distinction is important here.” (End image description)
So. This ticks all the boxes for overt transphobia, specifically trans exclusive radical feminism. First: misgendering trans women by referring to their assigned sex at birth. Second: claims that a certain set (or maybe all) trans women are faking being women for nefarious purposes. Third: that being trans is a fetish and a perversion.
There are numerous flaws to this. Sex at birth is not a universal predictor of temperament, kindness, value, or any other human quality. Trying to separate out fakers allows you to attack anyone on flimsy grounds and forces people to conform to a set of standards that you decide in order to win acceptance or avoid punishment. The med/psych establishment has for a long time tried to mislabel transness into definable categories of mental illness or fetish behavior (autogynephilia). Transness is not a fetish. And for the record, fetishes are not inherently bad - though sex negativity and kink critical ideology is a staple of radfeminism. But the conflating of queerness, specifically genderqueerness, with overt sexuality (with the implication of forcing oneself into spaces or upon others) is a very old queerphobic tactic.
Another person reached out to me with images from the wayback machine of venwe’s transphobic blog activity:
ImageDescription: four images of venwe’s tumblr blog activities captured by the wayback machine. First, a text post that says “there is no such thing as more of or less of a woman, you either are a woman or you aren’t. Like genderists say that a lot, that we’re less of a woman or inferior to trans women. No offense but that insult doesn’t hurt me the way it does to you. I don’t need some punk ass kid on tumblr validating my social and biological reality, I’m very aware of it, your projection is showing.”
Second, a text post with the image of an anime woman in blue military dress and the caption “Canon terf character of the day: Olivier Armstrong from full metal alchemist brotherhood.”
Third, an anon ask to venwe that says “hi, what is your opinion on radfem/terf ideology? I’m just confused bc you reblogged something from a terf” to which venwe replied “I am a radical feminist lol, isn’t that kinda … self evident? I have no solid thoughts on terf ideology though, because I have yet to come across any coherent explanation of what it actually is.”
Fourth, a text post that venwe liked that reads “one of the strongest blood boilers is the question ‘if your feminism doesn’t include trans women then who is it for then?’ How about 3.5 billion people? Is that enough? Are we still allowed to exercise our fundamental human rights and come together, organize and have female only events and spaces?” What name shall we give our movement if not feminism? They can have their everyoneism. Leave FEMinism alone, it belongs to us FEMales. We are half the planet and we are not going anywhere.” (End image description).
This is what we mean when we say doing something as simple as boosting a radfem blog, or reblogging ordinary posts from them, draws more followers to radfem bloggers. This not only increases the ideological sway they can exert over a group but opens the queer and trans folks in the wider circle to radfem attacks by simple visibility.
@cycas @warrioreowynofrohan this is who you are defending. My dms are open if you want to chat. If you have any questions about radfem ideology, common terf talking points and modes of recruitment, and common tools the trans community uses to deplatform radfems and other bigots, please reach out. I am hoping this was a case of being well-intentioned but misinformed.
Hi everyone, I want to weigh in here, because making sure the Tolkien fandom is an inclusive place is very important to me. Transphobia is not a harmless difference of opinion that can be shrugged off. I’m reblogging lie-where-i-land’s original post on this (with his permission) so that the context is all here.
I do understand why some people initially expressed skepticism about venwe being a terf, because they didn’t have any context, and they wanted to see evidence. Fortunately, there is evidence, as you can see above. In addition, the knowledge among some folks that venwe is transphobic is not new.
Back in 2020, well before venwe’s blog was terminated, I happened to look at it and see some posts that sounded like radfem rhetoric, so I investigated further. After seeing venwe reblog posts from blogs with “terf” in the URL, I sent her the anonymous ask pictured above, in which I asked her, “hi, what is your opinion on terf/radfem ideology? just curious bc you reblogged something from a terf” and she responded: “i ama radical feminist lol, isn’t that kinda…self-evident? i have no solid thoughts on “terf ideology” tho, because i have yet to come across any coherent explanation of what it actually is.”
As an aside, it didn’t surprise me that she didn’t self-identify as a terf, because a lot of radfems don’t use that term to describe themselves, but it doesn’t matter. Radfems areterfs and it is also evident from the screenshots captured above that venwe reblogged posts from people with URLs that had “radfem” and “terf” in them. And the content of the posts is awful as well: calling trans women “men wearing lipstick”, implying that all trans women are predatory, and things like that. Back in 2020 when I checked her blog I also saw a mean and insulting joke about trans women, but now I can’t find it.
Regardless of venwe specifically, I’m not happy that some people have hand-waved this issue away with the idea of “I follow some people I disagree with.” I follow some people I disagree with, in the sense that if someone is a huge fan of a particular character that I amnota fan of, or if they have a different interpretation of canon than I have, I might still follow them because they post interesting stuff. But that’s not what we’re talking about here.
It’s fine to follow some people you disagree with, but I think it’s a good idea todraw a line somewhere. Are you mutuals with people who post racist things? Are you mutuals with people who post homophobic things? Are you mutuals with people who post sexist things? And if a mutual of yours, who had previously seemed like a decent person, posted something bigoted and hurtful, would you want to continue following that person? I hope most people reading this post, and following this blog, would answer “no” to these questions. Why would you want to be mutuals with someone who posts transphobic things? If you do want to be mutuals with such a person, then this is where we part ways, because we have a different understanding of what an inclusive fandom looks like.
I want to add that that I don’t expect people to extensively vet the political opinions of everyone they follow. I don’t either; that’s why I ended up following venwe at one point. But I dothink that the transphobic rhetoric of people like venwe has no place in the Tolkien fandom, or any fandom for that matter. I also understand that many of us run “fandom blogs” that are not political in nature, but if we want our fan spaces to be inclusive, we can’t ignore this issue as a “political” one with which we do not want to engage. The bottom line is this: transphobia is not a difference of opinion that I am willing to tolerate in any community that I am part of.
Some people have put forth the idea that venwe, and other people who share her views, should notbe blocked and excluded from the fan community, they should be talked to and brought in, instead. I have mixed feelings about this. First, from what I’ve seen on her blog before it was terminated, she was not willing to engage in good-faith discussions; that is to say, people have tried to give her the benefit of the doubt and change her mind, and it hasn’t worked. She could change her harmful views, but it’s ultimately up to her to change, if she wants to. As far as I’ve seen, she’s shown no remorse for the transphobic things she’s posted. I would rather create a community in which trans people feel safe than a community which caters to people like her.
Please note that any harassment of any person mentioned in this post is completely unacceptable. So far this discussion has been conducted politely, and I want it to stay that way. Do not go into people’s inboxes and insult them or harass them. I’m willing to take asks at my other blog, middle-earth-mythopoeia.
it would really be fantastic if other lgbt+ especially other trans people could stop throwing transmasculine people under the bus for like. 5 seconds. thatd really be nice
mind if I ask
what
What happened??
a few days ago i woke up and as soon as i opened tumblr i was greeted by a post from one of my (former) favorite blogs talking about discourse in the lgbt community
it was a solid post. but then i actually read the tags the blogger left they just blatantly started shit talking transmascs about how we “need to do better” because apparently we “dont give a shit about other members of the lgbt+ community” (im paraphrasing but thats pretty much what they said) when the original post in question did not, not ONCE, mention transmasc individuals at all in ANY capacity.
that was just what happened that sparked this post but it’s not the first time ive seen it happen and it most definitely wont be the last. i constantly see ppl shit talk transmascs for anywhere from talking about problems that affect us to the Horrible Crime of Being Men (or male aligned) n its really disheartening. like ive seen so many ppl use transmascs as a scapegoat for discourse and just trash talking in general. so many people make jokes at transmascs expense because Haha Funny or whatever n it just? sucks so bad and really upsets me
sorry for getting ranty with this. if you want to know the specific post in question i can try to dig it up but im not going to say who made the post/left the tags because i dont want to start discourse or have people coming at me for being rightfully upset about transmasc issues (which ive seen happen countless times on this website) also feel free to ask for me to elaborate on specific stuff if need be? i know i can get a little hard to understand when i get ranty
it would really be fantastic if other lgbt+ especially other trans people could stop throwing transmasculine people under the bus for like. 5 seconds. thatd really be nice
and also while im complaining it would just be really nice if we could also stop being the butt of all your shitty jokes. bc lemme tell you as a nonbinary trans man it gets really tiring really fast when i try to find a safe space in the lgbt+ community and am immediately “welcomed” by straight up transphobia against transmascs for the evil evil crime of Being Men.
it would really be fantastic if other lgbt+ especially other trans people could stop throwing transmasculine people under the bus for like. 5 seconds. thatd really be nice
Friendly reminder that I believe in transandrophobia / transmascphobia / treiphobia
Meaning I believe transmascs experience oppression specifically for being transmasc
I legitimately don’t understand how that’s a controversial take but I just saw yet another “if you believe in transandrophobia you deserve to die” post so :|
literally none of that exists. transandrophobia is a term coined by a man who fantasizes about raping lesbians and trans women. all those terms are transmisogynistic in nature because they were created by butthurt transmisogynistic transmascs who believe in misandry. there is literally 0 use for the term as there is nothing that affects transmascs but not transfems/other trans people, it is literally just an attempt to steal from trans women’s specific terminology. but transmisogyny has a reason to exist as it is the intersection between transphobia and misogyny. misandry however does not exist and androphobia is the legit fear of men that people who have been abused/traumatized by men experience. and thats not even getting into all the details on how fucking rotten the transandrophobia community is. theres a reason why no one can stand u lmao
literally shut the fuck up and eat shit
woah thats pretty transmascphobic of u :/ what do u have against trans men speaking their minds??? huhh??
good to see youre exactly the kind of garbage person i was talking about
yeah im such a garbage man who thinks raping women and being a misogynist is bad :((( thats sooo evil and unmasculine of me
hiii sorry to barge in but there are things that effect transmascs specifically, particularly in healthcare a la being forced to detransition in the event of pregnancy, but that is not transmisandry because it isn’t an intersection of transphobia and misandry (bc misandry isn’t a thing, these things don’t happen specifically because we are men but rather specifically because we are trans men). everything else from loewsvillage tracks i think, we should not be using terminology coined by someone who publicly fantasizes about assaulting women especially when that terminology refers to an intersection of an oppression that does not exist (misandry)
Once again transandrophobia is not supposed to be “an intersection of transphobia and misandry”
exactly, misandry doesn’t exist, the oppression transmascs face is just transphobia because its happening because we’re trans, not because we’re men
transmascs face a combination of transphobia and misogyny that is different from transmisogyny. one of the words coined for that is transandrophobia. trans men are actually oppressed for living as their true gender, which is to say, being men.
“i dont want this on my blog anymore. anyhow. did you just say transmascs experience misogyny (ie oppression for being women)… also, transmascs experience oppression for being their true gender, but so do all trans people. thats literally what transphobia is. what is the reason behind relying on a term made by a horrible person to distance yourself from other trans people having the same sorts of experiences as you?? i seriously dont get it”
I need you to understand that experiencing misogyny =/= being a woman, and whether you experience a type of oppression is much more dependent on how bigots perceive you than your actual identity.
