I’m not sure I believe in the concept of Transandrophobia as it has been previously described to me. For the most part nothing I’ve seen described seems to have any significant differences from garden variety transphobia.
This is no to say that I don’t believe that there aren’t examples of transphobia that are experiences unique to trans men, and it rankly would be hilariously wrong to assume that there aren’t. So I’m not inclined to get hostile or defensive about it as a term transmascs use in general in talking about those experiences.
However I have seen a few bad faith actors use the term as a cudgel to attack some trans women they don’t like, as well as the claim that trans women enjoy increased visibility from cis people while ignoring that that visibility is generally based around the portrayal of us as a threat (i.e. as Sexual predators and invaders into women’s spaces and sports).
There is clearly an important conversation on Trans men’s oppression that needs to happen, but I don’t trust anyone who starts that conversation with an adversarial stance towards trans women.
Also and discussion that starts with the assumption that ‘trans men/women have it easier because x’ is inherently bad faith and I’m not going to entertain it.
Understanding that this is a space for good faith discussion and not for ignorant assholes to come swinging:
I would probably begin by asking you the same. What separates transmisogyny from garden variety transphobia? What aspects of transmisogyny do trans men not experience?
I have seen those bad actors and I have outwardly, openly disagreed with them when they cross my dash. However I also could say the same: I have seen trans women using transmisogyny as both sword and shield to swing at trans men by saying we have it easier or that we need to be put in our place or that we don’t experience oppression at all. I have seen trans women say that even having a name, any name, for what we go through is transmisogyny in and of itself because we’re ‘making transphobia about us’ and ‘only centering ourselves’. I have seen trans women claiming the erasure and invisibility of trans men is actually privilege.
Again, I am not attacking you, nor am I saying all trans women are bad. But I am saying, if we must answer for a few bad actors, why can we not ask the same of others? If we must constantly be reminded, remember trans men can be transmisogynists, why can we also not point out that other transgender people can also treat us badly? That they also can contribute to a system that harms us directly?
A white trans woman recently put me on a blocklist made up of people she claims are transmisogynists and racists. I’m a black trans man who was directly mentored by an older trans woman and who regularly directly contributes to my local transgender community *including by hosting homeless trans women in my house rent-free while they secure safe long-term housing*. I have never spoken to this particular trans woman. She doesn’t know me, or my life, or anything about who I am. Yet she was able to make a bad faith attack against my character by wielding transmisogyny (and racism! from a white woman to a black man!) as a sword against me and as a shield to protect her from any blowback.
Are we not allowed to talk about these bad actors as well? Are we not allowed to be upset? Angry, even, to be spit on by our sisters like this? Are we not allowed to call it out when we see it?
You are under no obligation to answer for bad actors. To pretend that each trans man should be on trial for the actions of the worst would be ridiculous. Its not something you should take from anyone.
I’m only stating that I don’t quite believe in the version that had previously been presented to me. Which I’m pretty convinced was by someone that wasn’t giving a more honest account as their own presentation of it was based entirely around trans men’s position in comparison to trans women. I’d like to get an honest statement on what Transandrophobia actually is, one that is focused more on trans men rather than a version that seemed based around a comparison to trans women.
Very possible, even likely.
“Transandrophobia”, “transmisandry”, “transmascphobia”, “transphobia against trans mascs” no matter what you call it, it means the same thing. Each has had more people concerned about the word itself or the origins of such than what they mean and what they represent.
For the record, when I was mentored and guided by a trans woman old enough to be my parent, using language so old that nowadays it’s considered offensive, it was her opinion and the opinion of those like her that it’s all “transmisogyny”, and that trans men and trans women didn’t actually have that many differences outside of what would be directly influenced by the paths we took via transition. I think the current discourse has done a lot of damage to the unity represented by that belief.
In any case, it is: transphobia + malignment and hatred of those with a complicated relationship with gender and masculine-leaning identities + misogyny. Often with sprinkles of homophobia, racism, intersexism, and ableism on top, as all discussions of gender tend to be.
In life, this looks like:
The rejection of nonbinary people of any designation who are too “male-appearing” from LGBT spaces labeled friendly to “women and nonbinary”
The rampant rape and forcible impregnation of uterus-bearing transgender people as a means of detransition
The resurgence of the “predatory butch” stereotype
The medical abuse and forced feminization of viralized intersex bodies
Deliberately denying lifesaving medical treatment unrelated to transition to trans men, including abortions, pap smears, and cervical/uterine/ovarian cancer treatments
The constant erasure of trans men and trans mascs in history- explaining them as “just lesbians” or “masculine women” even when we have writing from journals and letters and wills stating they wished only to be known as men
The “stolen lesbian” and “butch flight” stereotype
The “fujoshi” stereotype
Laws written specifically to preserve the fertility of all people with uteruses, which have within their writing that they intend to prevent “girls” from “ruining their viability as mothers” due to the “gender craze”
It is not that there is belief that trans women don’t experience their own versions of this- in fact, outside of forced impregnation, I’d guess y’all probably do experience a lot of this same stuff just in a different flavored gender expression. Additionally, most of this is not afab-specific; there’s quite a few discussions circulating where amab trans people are included in this because they are amab and trans but not feminine (or they are feminine but they are bigender, or genderqueer, or they are neutral and Whatever The Fuck They Feel Like Doing That Day).
This is why my old mentor considered it all the same. She felt as though we all experience our own versions of this, it’s all fueled by a combination of transphobia and misogyny, and just repackaged in slightly different colors based on the individual experiencing it. I can’t say I disagree with her.
There are some people who view this discussion as “this is transphobia for trans men” and “that is transphobia for trans women”, and I think that’s not really a bad thing per say, but I think it adds an unnecessary gender line and often oppression isn’t so clearcut. Especially when you remember that nonbinary genders exist and not everyone is “boy” or “girl”.
For the record, when I was mentored and guided by a trans woman old enough to be my parent, using language so old that nowadays it’s considered offensive, it was her opinion and the opinion of those like her that it’s all “transmisogyny”, and that trans men and trans women didn’t actually have that many differences outside of what would be directly influenced by the paths we took via transition.
This is a very slight derail, sorry OP, but I wanted to highlight this bit without taking it out of context.
I think I understand where your mentor is coming from and I actually agree! I’ve been reading Whipping Girl bit by bit (where transmisogyny was “officially” coined and I think Serano and everyone else since 2007 have forgotten that what trans people face in terms of phobia, oppression, the ilk, is entirely based on how people perceive us.
It’s why I take such offense to TME/TMA as static labels. Why I say trans women and trans femme people can face transandrophobia and trans men and trans masc people can face transmisogyny. There are definite conversations to be had about unique situations one can experience, but everything is just muddy. It’s not oil and water; it’s silt, and we can strain water from clay, but it’s a lot of fucking effort and really not useful in a day to day context imo.
Pride is almost here so I think it is good to remember pride isn’t here thanks to world wide companies who “dress in rainbow” just for a month. Pride is here because trans women, butch lesbians, gay men, queer people of color and every other memeber of the LGBTQ+ community fought in the past and still fighting today. There are still a lot of things to fight for. So keep fighting until we are sure each one of us is safe and happy. Have a great pride month.
Also trans men. Because posts like this always mention trans women but not trans men. It is possible to support transfeminine people without perpetuating the myth that trans men have never been involved in our own history. Thanks.
Jamison Green, born in 1948. He was a pioneer for trans men after Lou Sullivan’s death. He’s still alive.
Robert Eads, 1945-1999. Pictured with his trans female partner, Lola. I recommend watching Southern Comfort, which follows him throughout his final year of life. His story is a beautiful one, but also a tragic example of medical transphobia.
Loren Cameron, born in 1959. A photographer and artist, who curated exceptional and groundbreaking collections of trans photography.
Willmer Broadnax, 1916-1992. A black gospel singer who never medically transitioned, but lived his entire life as a male, in public.
Lucas Silveira, born in 1979. He is the first openly transgender man to have signed with a major record label. He is still alive.
Billy Tipton, 1914-1989. He did not undergo a medical transition, but raised multiple children, and had a successful musical career.
Jim McHarris, a black trans man born in 1954, who you can read more about here.
Reed Erickson, 1917-1992. You can read about his insanely important contribution to LGBT+ progress here.
Stop erasing trans male stories by leaving us out of Pride Month posts.
Trans men are not a footnote in history.
Trans men are not an afterthought.
We have always been around.
Erasure of trans men, and transmasculine people more generally, perpetuates the myth that queerness is inherently feminine. Butch lesbians, male impersonators, and trans men have always been central to LGBT+ progress and pride. I’m tired of people defaulting to anti-FTM mindsets, or at the very least, erasing trans men as their first instinct. I’m sick of the invisibility that we suffer. I’m sick of masculine lesbians, like Stormé DeLarverie, being treated as irrelevant. I feel so much solidarity with butches and lesbians who have been cut out of history, because the same thing is happening to trans men.
This Pride Month, when you see a post claiming trans women are the only ones who ever contributed to progress, remember to critically think. Remember all the work that trans men have done. Remember the masculine people, and men, who died so that we could live. Who stood alongsidedrag queens and trans women.
I’m firmly against telling people to kill themselves in any context but I’ve seen in nearly every transandrophobia related post that gets circulated someone (or multiple people) comments “kys op” and that seems particularly disgusting to me.
Like a person has the courage to speak up about the oppression they face in their day to day life. They speak up, they bring awareness to issues people may not have considered, they lend support, visibility, and community to others experiencing similar things. And you’re going to tell them to kill themselves? And you still think you’re in the right?
The fact some of y’all are willing to regurgitate TERF, radfem, and antisemitic rhetoric, dogwhistles, and talking points just to “own” a few “stinky icky boys/TMEs” proves that you (especially non-trans women) don’t actually do this shit to protect anyone. You just do it because you want to hurt people and silence those who oppose you.
If you have to talk like a fascist in order to feel like you’re winning an argument, then maybe you should just accept the fact you’re wrong and lost.
If you don’t think an intelligent argument will work, fine. Insult them. Say they have a frail ego, whatever. But using “small dick” as an insult is no better than using “fat” or “ugly” as an insult. If a woman is being an awful person, is it suddenly okay to insult her by saying she isn’t sexually attractive, she has small tits, she’ll never get a man?
And what about the people you care about? What about trans men and intersex men and anyone else with a penis? Do you have any care in your heart for everyone else who is hurt by your bodyshaming? Is it really worth perpetuating bodyshaming just to hurt one asshole? Do you really prize getting a good punch it at someone who sucks over the feelings of thousands of decent people who feel ashamed and embarrassed about their natural body?
“I don’t really mean it, but I know they care!” is not a good excuse for bodyshaming. There is no good excuse for bodyshaming. I know it seems funny and harmless to you, but it’s hurtful, and if you really care about other people you’ll think about that.
Not to mention “small penis” was literally used as an insult against Asian men.
I remember how in the early 2000s/2010s jokes about Asian men’s penises being small were super common.
I think the stereotype has died down a bit, but I remember it and it wasn’t that long ago.
I also hate the idea that big dick = dangerous and small penis = safe.
Any demographic that is stereotyped as being violent also has the stereotype of having a big dick attached to it.
For example, men of color, or trans women,who are always portrayed as having huge dicks that they whip out in public.
And vice versa, any demographic that is infantilizated also has the stereotype of having a small dick attached to it.
For example, Asian men, or trans men (unless they get bottom surgery, then they become dangerous).
yall gotta stop being weird when a trans guy wheres a skirt. its the same as when a cis guy does it and its wonderful. anyway I love it when trans men wear skirts and i wish ebery one of them a wonderful day
One time I wore a skirt to go to “prom” (my country doesn’t really do prom) and my friends, who were all cis girls, were super perplexed and looked at me all confused.
They questioned if my parents had made me wear it, and I told them no, I wanted to wear this. Even more confused and suspicious looks.
One of them, later, asked me “what my deal was” because I would occasionally misgender myself and I didn’t ask people to use my correct name.
She maybe thought I wasn’t really trans or something (she used to watch K*lvin G*rrah, like me) but the truth was that I had to misgender myself at home and I had a lot of anxiety around asking people to call me Andrea because of a really bad coming out experience with my parents + people-pleasing tendencies.
Anyways these cis girls had decided they were the authority on who was a real trans guy and what he should look and act like, and clearly, I didn’t fit the bill.
This is what trans men are talking about when we say we feel alienated from queer communities.
Patriarchy affects us all (yes, even cis men) and simply existing as a man is not an oppressive act.
Trans men and afab nonbinary people have the highest suicide attempt rates of any group in the trans community, and shit like this is part of the reason why.
Transmasculine people often feel that they need to hate their own masculinity in order to be accepted in feminist spaces - that they’ll only be accepted if they contort themselves into ‘soft femme-aligned nonbinary afab’.
And if they do present masc or medically transition, they often compensate with self-hatred and guilt. There are so many trans guys out there who have internalized the ideas that they’re “class traitors” because they aren’t women, who feel intense guilt over their attraction to women that they never felt before coming out, who are constantly terrified of being seen as a predator.
This particular example is pretty extreme, but the “kill all men includes trans men” “masculinity is disgusting and femininity is beautiful” “women are better than men” “ewww gross man” stuff is still very prevalent in feminist circles (especially among cis women).
[Transcript: the title is Manhood, in all caps. It reads the following.
Trans men are suspicious. How exactly do you sit down and think about gender, then reach the conclusion that misogyny and exploiting women is the gender for you? Choosing to join the ranks of the patriarchs, actively identifying with oppressive malehood. The trans men who feel bodily dysphoria should absolutely and in no way be denied any opportunity to get that fixed (I understand that pain all too well), but critical self examination is still required, manhood is still a fundamentally and irredeemably a reactionary and chauvinist identity and social position. There is no such thing as a non-sexist man, just like there’s no such thing as a non-exploitative bourgeoisie. /End transcript]
Being CTF* intersex as a trans man is just googling your symptoms only to be met with immediate detransition suggestions, coercive feminization, and virilphobic rhetoric.
I’m so tired of seeking resources so I can understand my intersex body better and have more pride in it only to be met with medicalized shaming of my hyperandrogenism alongside blatantly antimasculist, virilphobic implications.
Transhystericism as a concept I’ve been rotating in my mind really covers the alienation at play for trans people assumed to be “biologically female”. If you have a uterus, had a uterus, or look like you probably have a uterus in their eyes then you’re very likely to be subjected to this, and it specifically harms many trans men, transmascs, transneutrals, and intersex people of all identities to a disproportionate capacity. CTF intersex people being pressured and coerced en masse to feminize the minute they’re diagnosed regardless of their identity is definitive and objective proof of systemic virilphobia.
The medicalized alienation of deviant virility, no matter your identity or “assigned sex” is very real and I wish we talked about it more. The way CTF* intersex conditions are treated speaks volumes on how cisnorm views people it deems “female” (based on physiology and phenotype) appearing virile and masculine.
*CTF means Close To Female, this encompasses many conditions but shouldn’t be applied to someone without their consent.
(Sorry for derailing, I’m not intersex but I have a similar experience. I’ll delete it if it’s inappropriate)
When I was 15 and I had just come out as trans (for the first time, then I went back in the closet and now I’m in the they-know-but-ignore-it limbo) and I asked my mom to take me to a therapist that could help with my gender dysphoria.
(Mind you I knew very little of the process, I was looking for someone who could guide me, since all the sources were in English, which I didn’t speak that well)
So of course, she took me to a Christian family counselling centre. It went about as well as you expected.
The first guy that I talked to tried to convince me that “genderfluid” meant identifying as the “opposite” gender from your AGAB, and that “transgender” meant having a fluid gender. My guy…
So, essentially, I was wrong and I was actually genderfluid because he knew better than I did.
The second lady was a nightmare. She kept telling me to act more feminine, so that I could become more comfortable in my womanhood.
That if I juuuust tried harder, leaned more into it, I’d love it!
Like someone telling a guy who’s having an allergic reaction that if he just keeps eating, he’ll love it eventually.
Thing is, I am feminine, but a feminine guy, not a feminine girl!
Eventually I asked my mom to stop taking me there and I pretended that I had been “cured” of my transness.
So I guess I technically detransitioned? I hadn’t done anything more than cutting my hair, so I don’t know if it counts.
Anyways, it’s been 4-5 years in the closet and I can’t take it anymore, tomorrow I have my first appointment with someone from a trans support group to talk transition.
for people who read my pride post and said “who is saying that disabled people can’t be queer??” …
firstly, you’re living a much better life than me. I wish I was living in your version of the universe. secondly… lots of people.
non-speaking or otherwise mid-high support autistic people are often not trusted when they communicate their queerness to others.
physically disabled people are often sent the message that they can’t be sexual. that they don’t have a sexuality.
denying us our sexuality and gender is a component of the infantilisation of disabled people. people assume we’re too feeble to be thinking about sex, and too confused to think about gender.
so who is saying that disabled people can’t be queer?
doctors who won’t let disabled people access gender-affirming processes.
carers who don’t consider that their client might be queer.
media that continues to depict disabled people in ways that are desexualised and generally infantilising.
disabled people still know themselves better than you ever will. listen to them.
Literally one of JKR’s biggest arguments against transmascs was that we’re autistic girls and therefore can’t be trusted to know our identity, or that we’re too stupid and will be brainwashed by the evil transes.
And from what I’ve heard this argument has done wonders to make HRT more inaccessible to trans people in the UK.
and if you can, go and see The Death and Life of Marsha P Johnson, which includes this footage as part of a fuller segment on Sylvia Rivera’s life right up until her death. what an amazing person who the world was not ready for.
(Transcription follows:) Sylvia Rivera: I may be—
Crowd: [booing]
Sylvia Rivera: Y'all better quiet down. I’ve been trying to get up here all day for your gay brothers and your gay sisters in jail that write me every motherfucking week and ask for your help and you all don’t do a goddamn thing for them.
Have you ever been beaten up and raped and jailed? Now think about it. They’ve been beaten up and raped after they’ve had to spend much of their money in jail to get their [inaudible], and try to get their sex changes. The women have tried to fight for their sex changes or to become women. On the women’s liberation and they write ‘STAR,’ not to the women’s groups, they do not write women, they do not write men, they write ‘STAR’ because we’re trying to do something for them.
I have been to jail. I have been raped. And beaten. Many times! By men, heterosexual men that do not belong in the homosexual shelter. But, do you do anything for me? No. You tell me to go and hide my tail between my legs. I will not put up with this shit. I have been beaten. I have had my nose broken. I have been thrown in jail. I have lost my job. I have lost my apartment for gay liberation and you all treat me this way? What the fuck’s wrong with you all? Think about that!
I do not believe in a revolution, but you all do. I believe in the gay power. I believe in us getting our rights, or else I would not be out there fighting for our rights. That’s all I wanted to say to you people. If you all want to know about the people in jail and do not forget Bambi L'amour, and Dora Mark, Kenny Metzner, and other gay people in jail, come and see the people at Star House on Twelfth Street on 640 East Twelfth Street between B and C apartment 14.
The people are trying to do something for all of us, and not men and women that belong to a white middle class white club. And that’s what you all belong to!
REVOLUTION NOW! Gimme a ‘G’! Gimme an ‘A’! Gimme a ‘Y’! Gimme a ‘P’! Gimme an ‘O’! Gimme a ‘W’! Gimme an ‘E! Gimme an ‘R’! [crying] Gay power! Louder! GAY POWER!
There’s some really important commentary on this event by several trans women on the previous upload of the video. I’m going to quote it here so it’s not lost; unfortunately the original commenters have deleted their blogs or gone private so I can’t provide full attribution.
lilacbootlacessaid:
[[Trigger warning: suicide]]
Sylvia went home that night and attempted suicide.
Marsha Johnson came home and found her in time to save her life.
Sylvia left the movement after that day and didn’t come back for twenty years.
this is incredible, she is incredible, I highly recommend watching it
but I think the addendum re: the effect of this day on sylvia is really important
so often we valorise decontextualised moments of tough, articulate resistance and rage
and the suffering of the people who embodied them is not acknowledged, it’s uncomfortable, it’s not inspiring, we want them to stay tough and cool and stylish forever
which is particularly terrible when I think about how sylvia felt like that because of women like me — women who are now watching this video and feeling inspired and impressed and maybe a bit pleased with ourselves for finally having watched a speech by the famous and really cool to name-drop sylvia rivera
girl-assassinsaid:
rebloggin for the true as fuck commentary (bolding mine)
n like, on one hand this moment is decontextualized as fuck, but on the other hand a lot of ppl try to hyper-contextualize it to make it “history” and a very specific historical moment, so we (cis women) can be like “oh so sad that’s how it was in the 1970s, radfems were so awful, but it was only the whole second-wave scene that was the problem, glad that’s over.”
Like have we forgotten the fact that Sylvia only died in 2002? And she died young, if she were still alive she wouldn’t even be 65 yet. I know hella older ppl in NYC who knew her personally, and hella “leaders” of the NYC queer scene pulled horrific shit on her constantly in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s, like literally until the day she died (ppl from Empire State Pride agenda literally went to St. Vincents to beef with her on her death bed) Where are the video tapes/memorializing of that shit?
N now the Manhattan LGBT center on 13th st has a room dedicated to her memory, despite the fact that very center permanently banned her in 1995 for daring to suggest they should let homeless QTPOC sleep there in sub-zero weather.
N now there’s a whole homeless trans youth shelter on 36th st named after her, Sylvia’s Place, that kicked my TWOC friend out on the streets for testing positive for marijuana; failing to recognize how fucked up that is in a shelter named after a woman who struggled with addiction all her life, and was very vocal about the relationship between drug use and the stress of living under constant threats of violence.
N from the late 90s onward rich gays and lesbians openly fought against Sylvia to try to shut down 24/7 access to the piers that she n hella other QTPOC cruised and lived on bc they were bringing down the property values of their multi-million west village apartments.
N like 90% of the individual people who perpetuated fucked up violence against Sylvia are still alive and high-profile leaders in the NYC LGBT “community” today.
So like yes, good, remember the oppressive weight of our history of transmisogyny…but also remember that this shit specifically ain’t even history, it’s the current reality of the NYC queer/trans hierarchy today—like not even figuratively, literally the same people who pulled shit like this on Sylvia are still alive n well n all over NYC cutting the ribbons to the newest Sylvia Rivera memorial n eulogizing her like they never tried to fucking kill her themselves.
And all y’all transphobic fucks fucking dare say that we did not fight for your rights. We were there to help you get your rights every step of the way, now fucking do the same for us.
Damn fucking right.
Dedicated to the terf who reblogged with something like “Ooooh woe is me, I guess it’s not enough to control our language, they want to control our thought too oooh I’m but a poor little transphobe” and then blocked me.
Our trans elders fought for your rights and when they turned around you stabbed them in the back.
May you never forget and may you suffer for the evil shit you spout at our sisters and us.
