#asoiaf speculation
“It seems like it should make sense for them to, for Dany to see the truth of her family’s reign beneath the careful lies and imagery that Aegon is clothed in, and to also confront the bloody legacy of Valyiria, personified in the Greyjoy Brothers.”@orangedodge
I did not know if I should reblog on your post or write my own because I think I’m going a bit off-topic from the original post, but i have problems with this statement. Not because it is baseless but because it has a base and the problem of that base is a double standard between
a) slavery/feudalism as oppressive systems that made individuals unequal by law. If dehumanizing Slavers is a point, why humanize feudal lords? And still Slavers have no PoV while feudal lords and their children hold 90% of them. This evolves in the biggest overall problem that Asoiaf has for me, a lack of conexion between structure and message. It condemns feudalism as a system but shows it mostly through the privileged by the system, and villanizes characters that successfully thrive on it (Little Finger) against the rules set by it. It condemns racism but mostly through white PoV, in a story centered around a white culture, while what he thinks are Mediterranean inspired people are identified as exoticized PoC (with good reasons) by most of the Fandom, a much more developement of White Savages compared to “brown” savages, etc.
b) House Targaryen/other cool feudal houses, specially First Men houses like the Starks. Why has everyone noticed that facing the bad of House Targaryen ruling is a theme, but facing the bad of House Stark (or Blackwood, or Dayne) is not a common discussion? Is because in general Stark PoV generate less political discussion? And why is that? Because he still can do this with Bran but there are not as half as clues as with Daenerys there, or people hasn’t stopped to look, either because Bran is less interesting or because this double standard between different houses is clouding that perception? Because we don’t really have a bad Stark ruler in Canon that actually peaks the attention on it?
This unbalances enormously the gray areas on the political topics he addresses. Which is a pity because a dressing those topics is the thing that makes the whole series special on his own, in my opinion, a very biased one because systems of social oppression would have been my speciality if I have prosecuted a PhD.
And yeah, I analysed this saga as the unfinished work it is, and that will be for a long time if not forever.
Thank you for your thoughts, and for giving me the opportunity to clarify.
I don’t disagree about the double standards Daenerys is held to, they exist plainly within both the fandom and the in-universe world of asoiaf. Yes, she shouldn’t be held uniquely responsible for the crimes of her ancestors, especially when the Starks, Lanisters, Greyjoys, and Martells have many of the same atrocities in their histories that the Targaryens do, but Daenerys remains the only character who is placed in a position where she has the chance to confront the negative aspects of her family legacy and work past them. She’s the character who is dismantling a slave system that her people maintained for thousands of years. She’s the one character whose story has involved working in opposition to systemic violence and injustice. She’s one of only two rulers who agonizes over what it means to rule well, if such a thing is possible. The other rulers tend to be either oblivious to how they’ve unfairly benefited from the exploitation of others, or just don’t care, in other cases.
In short, we devote this extra focus on injustice and responsibility to Daenerys herself and to House Targaryen, because they’re the ones who that focus has been given to by the author, while the Starks and the Lannisters rarely consider such things, or in the case of houses like the Greyjoys would be unwilling to in any case. There are fandom biases driving that focus as well, but I think it’s largely just attributable to our attention being drawn where Martin has invited it.
Should Martin not also begin to have other his other POV characters begin to interrogate themselves over how they’ve wielded political power in a feudal system, and benefited from the crimes of their ancestors? Yes, of course, but I don’t foresee him actually doing that, beyond what he’s already done with Stannis via Davos’ chapters. So when Dany is singled out (as I single her out), I believe it is because confronting the past is a structural part of her journey alone, both because of the unique placement of her character (as the last of the Valyrian dragonlords, and as the leader of a Dothraki khalassar, and as the leader of a Ghiscari city-state), and because she’s been the sole vehicle for the author’s exploration of his own sense of collective guilt.
I agree with both here. Yes, the reason these discussions tend to center on Dany has a lot to do with the fact that the character herself and her narrative end up questioning these injustices and legacy. However, I still think it’s a very valid criticism of ASOIAF, because the narrative does seem to have a double standard, and I don’t think Martin should do this. I mean, if fandom speculation is correct, Dany will end up accidentally burning King’s Landing. And the reason for this is that “she has to confront her family’s legacy”. And in the end the narrative will punish Dany for this, and she’ll have to die to “redeem” herself. And this is a very unfair narrative. Why aren’t other characters forced to confront their ancestors’ legacy? Why doesn’t the narrative punish them for their ancestors’ legacy in the same way that the narrative will punish Dany, by having her do something horrible and then kill her off? Why is Daenerys that will be punished by the narrative, when her character is one of the only characters that actually questions the injustices in the society, while characters that never questioned these injustices or the costs of war will not be punished by the narrative and get to live and rule in the end?
All the Sand Snakes are depicted as being capable of violence, even Sarella shows up with a bow and arrow. But Obara is written differently. Obara’s the first one to show up. She’s brutish, angry and quick to threaten violence. Obara wants to use her spear and even thinks Dorne should attack the Reach and more specifically Oldtown.
“Obara would have me go to war.”
Nym laughed. “Yes, she wants to set the torch to Oldtown. She hates that city as much as our little sister loves it.”She’s set up to look like an out-of-control wild card. Yet neither Doran nor Arianne seem to fear her, Areo does not want to hurt her either. She is repeatedly contrasted with her sisters- Obara’s louder, more prone to drinking, angrier, and more tragic- her mother killed herself after Oberyn took her and Obara has been running from the grief ever since.
She snorted. “It has been twenty years, or near enough to make no matter. And I was not here long. I am the whore’s whelp, or had you forgotten?”
“Tyene. Obara is too loud. Tyene is so sweet and gentle that no man will suspect her. Obara would make Oldtown our father’s funeral pyre, but I am not so greedy.
“The day my father came to claim me, my mother did not wish for me to go. ‘She is a girl,’ she said, ‘and I do not think that she is yours. I had a thousand other men.’ He tossed his spear at my feet and gave my mother the back of his hand across the face, so she began to weep. ‘Girl or boy, we fight our battles,’ he said, ‘but the gods let us choose our weapons.’ He pointed to the spear, then to my mother’s tears, and I picked up the spear. 'I told you she was mine,’ my father said, and took me. My mother drank herself to death within the year. They say that she was weeping as she died.”
Obara is too fond of wine
She’s also not as sly or cunning as Nymeria or Tyene, she’s not as clever as Sarella or as carefree as Elia. She’s open and honest with her intentions, she speaks harshly but a lot of what she says has truth in them. A call for war isn’t lauded by the text but it is true that sooner or later war would come to Dorne.
“War will come, whether we wish it or not,” said Obara. “A boy king sits the Iron Throne. Lord Stannis holds the Wall and is gathering northmen to his cause. The two queens are squabbling over Tommen like bitches with a juicy bone. The ironmen have taken the Shields and are raiding up the Mander, deep into the heart of the Reach, which means Highgarden will be preoccupied as well. Our enemies are in disarray. The time is ripe.”
[The time was ripe for Aegon to arrive ]
This is why I’m starting to think that Obara is going to be one of the eldest Sand Snakes to survive the series along with Sarella. She’s deliberately framed as though she’s a lost cause with some people in the fandom thinking she’s capable of kinslaying and stabbing Areo in the back. Instead, I think she’ll take Areo’s role as captain of the guards when Arianne ascends the throne.
The captain of guards knew the prince he guarded. Once, long ago, a callow youth had come from Norvos, a big broad-shouldered boy with a mop of dark hair. That hair was white now, and his body bore the scars of many battles … but his strength remained, and he kept his longaxe sharp, as the bearded priests had taught him.
When a serving girl knelt to wipe up the spilled wine, Obara left the hall. After a moment Princess Arianne excused herself and went after her. Obara would never turn her rage on the little princess, Hotah knew. They are cousins, and she loves her well.
“I know you will not fail us, cousins.” Arianne went to each of them in turn, took their hands, kissed them lightly on the lips. “Obara, so fierce. Nymeria, my sister. Tyene, sweetling. I love you all. The sun of Dorne goes with you.”
Obara loves her cousin, Arianne trusts her, and Obara would fiercely defend her if necessary. We have already gotten a preview of what her service to Arianne would be like.
Only Ser Gerold Dayne had escaped unscathed. Darkstar. If Myrcella’s horse had not shied at the last instant, his longsword would have opened her from chest to waist instead just taking off her ear. Dayne was her most grievous sin, the one that Arianne most regretted. With one stroke of his sword, he had changed her botched plot into something foul and bloody. If the gods were good, by now Obara Sand had treed him in his mountain fastness and put an end to him.
Obara is being sent with Areo on a mission to clean up the Queenmaker plot… I don’t think it’s a mistake or GRRM trying to find something for Obara to do. I’m genuinely starting to think this is her endgame.
‘But Say, Obara wants war and she doesn’t care about peace,’ I hear you saying. While Obara’s wish for war isn’t exactly morally exemplary, it hasn’t happened. It can’t happen, I suspect Obara knew that when she went to Doran, a man known for exercising caution. At any rate, rather than being discarded as a lost cause, Obara will be given an opportunity to learn an important lesson.
Prince Doran shut his eyes and opened them again. Hotah could see his leg trembling underneath the blanket. “If you were not my brother’s daughters, I would send the three of you back to your cells and keep you there until your bones were grey. Instead I mean to take you with us to the Water Gardens. There are lessons there if you have the wit to see them.”
“Lessons?” said Obara. “All I’ve seen are naked children.”
“Aye,” the prince said. “I told the story to Ser Balon, but not all of it. As the children splashed in the pools, Daenerys watched from amongst the orange trees, and a realization came to her. She could not tell the highborn from the low. Naked, they were only children. All innocent, all vulnerable, all deserving of long life, love, protection. 'There is your realm,’ she told her son and heir, ’remember them, in everything you do.’ My own mother said those same words to me when I was old enough to leave the pools. It is an easy thing for a prince to call the spears, but in the end the children pay the price. For their sake, the wise prince will wage no war without good cause, nor any war he cannot hope to win.This lesson isn’t something that Arianne needs to learn, she learnt it bitterly when Arys died and when Myrcella was mutilated. It’s Obara’s lesson to learn. In fact, the children in the Water Gardens are brought up to Obara multiple times.
The captain of guards knew the prince he guarded. Once, long ago, a callow youth had come from Norvos, a big broad-shouldered boy with a mop of dark hair. That hair was white now, and his body bore the scars of many battles … but his strength remained, and he kept his longaxe sharp, as the bearded priests had taught him. She shall not pass, he told himself, and said, “The prince is watching the children at their play. He is never to be disturbed when he is watching the children at their play.”
“Hotah,” said Obara Sand, “you will remove yourself from my path, else I shall take that longaxe and—”Hotah could hear them splashing and shouting at each other in high, shrill voices. “It was not so long ago that you were one of the children in those pools, Obara,” the prince said, when she took one knee before his rolling chair.
She snorted. “It has been twenty years, or near enough to make no matter. And I was not here long. I am the whore’s whelp, or had you forgotten?”The prince gestured toward the pools. “Obara, look at the children, if it please you.”
“It does not please me. I’d get more pleasure from driving my spear into Lord Tywin’s belly. I’ll make him sing 'The Rains of Castamere’ as I pull his bowels out and look for gold.”‘Obara, look at the children. You were once one of them.’ Repeated over and over again for a reason. When Euron attacks the Water Gardens (GRRM said Daenerys wouldn’t attack it but he didn’t say it wouldn’t be attacked. The Water Gardens like the Maidenpool will serve as another reminder of the cruelty of war), Obara will be there, trying to protect them. She’ll get to use her spear in a futile but necessarily attempt to defend those children.
Seven, Brienne thought again, despairing. She had no chance against seven, she knew. No chance, and no choice.
She stepped out into the rain, Oathkeeper in hand. “Leave her be. If you want to rape someone, try me.”Decades ago Obara was given a choice between her mother and the spear and Obara chose the spear. Since then she hasn’t had an opportunity to use it. Her mother died crying because of that spear and Obara has nothing to show for it until now. First, she’ll avenge Myrcella, a child who was maimed, by taking down her attacker Gerold Dayne. Then, she’ll return to her uncle and fight another man who harms children- Euron. She won’t win then- I’m starting to suspect she might be the Sand Snake that is dragged through the streets by Euron as shown on the TV show- but she won’t die. Her story won’t end there.
It will end in Dorne, in the Water Gardens. It’ll end when Arianne takes her rightful place as Princess of Dorne. It’ll end after the last war is finished and Westeros begins rebuilding. Dorne will take a lot of damage in Aegon VI’s war with Daenerys and Arianne will need support from her remaining family and from her oldest cousin to rebuild it. Most importantly the woman who felt she did not have a place will finally know that she belonged to those pools and to Dorne. She might finally be at peace with the choice she made when her father came to collect her.
Or maybe Euron does something truly fucked in Oldtown, a place that Obara has wanted to raze that she is confronted with the reality of all that hate and warmongering she’s been pursuing.
That too but the Water Gardens would feel more personal. I don’t want it to be destroyed but ever since @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir made that post, its become obvious that Euron will attack it.
