Strauss is careful in introducing the fledgling to various Tremere practices, because he doesn’t want to move too quickly. He can tell Phaedra is easily rattled. There’s some drama when she first encounters Max’s grub homunculus, for example.
She’s in the chantry library, engrossed in her search for a suitable source book when the grub addresses her in a small tinny voice. Turning around, she sees the creature – a maggoty large worm that bears Strauss’ face. She screams in fear and backs to a corner. Max comes to investigate and sees her collapsed in a heap, with the grub on the table with a placid unsearchable look on its face.
Max tries to soothe the weeping Phaedra by telling that the homunculus is harmless and loyal to him; he cut off a chunk of his very own flesh to create it. This only makes Phaedra sob even harder. This is one of the rare miscalculations that the diplomatic regent makes. The elder Max can’t read all situations right or remember how alien some of the blood sorcerous practices are to the fledglings.
The grub in the typical homunculus fashion is capricious and exhibits the worst qualities of its maker. It senses that Phaedra fears it and hates to see it, and therefore it takes the opportunity to grief her. Eventually she gains enough courage to be done with the homunculus’ bullshit and schools it. One night the grub goes too far, thinking the apprentice too timid to act against it, and goes rooting her jewelry box; she discovers it in the act, seizes it by its tail and hurls it down the stairs from her room. The grub behaves better after this.
The thing that bothers Phaedra, of course, is mainly the face. She likes Max and is even a little smitten, and hates to see his face on this shapeless horror. She tells Max that she doesn’t think she’ll ever make a homunculus for herself. This disappoints Max, but he hopes that she might change her mind yet, in a decade or two. Phaedra will however create sanguine assistants once her thaumaturgy is good enough and even later, a blood imp.
My headcanons on how Strauss and my fledgling react to the Pyramid fracturing, and how it affects their relationship.
~
The Inquisition’s strike on the Tremere prime chantry in Vienna occurs in 2008, only four years after the fledgling joins the LA chantry as an apprentice. Like all apprentices, Phaedra underwent the Substantiation of the Seven rite after being accepted, and thereafter was under a weak blood bond to the clan’s Inner Council. After the strike, it slowly becomes evident that the bond to the clan elders is gone. Later on, the Tremere will learn that the essence of their vitae has changed on a fundamental level, making them unable to bind other vampires. This is more upsetting than just the individual Councilors being dead.
Phaedra grows worried over the turmoil that resonates through the clan, all the more so when she sees how badly Strauss reacts to it all. From early on, she has seen the Pyramid as a haven of security and stability, more so than the Camarilla, which she sees as more easily corruptible. All this is largely because of Max’s influence and his actions in securing her trust in her first weeks after the embrace. Phaedra always considered the Tremere to be more happily unified than they really were, due to the sense of togetherness that Strauss successfully promoted in his chantry, and now she is afraid of losing the home she’s found.
But the upheaval doesn’t affect her nearly as much as it does Max. He has been blood bound to the Council of Seven for several centuries and has diligently served the Pyramid all that time. The time he’s existed within the Pyramid is multiple times longer than his mortal life ever was. His sense of order and constancy is badly shaken. The rite of transubstantiation doesn’t make a Tremere into a drone (and if a fledgling demonstrates such tendency they usually are discouraged from it), but it did have its influence on him all the same. The clan structure, the Tremere code, and the bonding that has tied all the loyal Tremere together has worked together to provide Max with a sense of being protected, and been guidelines even when dealing with unsavory individual Tremere. Because he’s been very skilled in navigating the social structure of the clan, he has prospered and holds it in great esteem. (Which in turn ties into my ideas about his embrace and the difficulties he faced early on.)
Strauss lost friends, old mentors and mentees in the inquisition strike, and is crestfallen. He thinks back to the last time he was in Vienna, some century ago, and thinks how he may perhaps never get to return there again. While it’s secondary to the people he and the clan has lost, he mourns sharply the destruction of all the irreplaceable books and magical artifacts that were stored in the prime chantry. The attack is very much a personal tragedy for him, in addition to being a communal disaster
The alteration in the Tremere vitae sets Max to very dark thoughts and fears concerning Tremere. He’s horrified about the possibility of the Founder having died a final death. I tend to think that Max is too low on the hierarchy to know about the rumors of Tremere having switched bodies or about Saulot having corrupted/overtaken him. On one hand Max is old and has been through much, but on the other hand I like to keep Phaedra’s story to relatively grassroots levels, as well as not inflate just how special Max is more than I already do. Then again, with only some 2000 Tremere in existence, Max must be one of the better informed ones… Be that as it may, Strauss in any case is extremely disturbed and worried about the fate of the clan.
I really like this one. A lot of it resonates with me re: how I see Max and certain aspects of the Fledgeling’s dynamic with him.
(Bear with me, I’m still learning about WOD so I don’t have anywhere near the same scope of understanding that you do.)
I also think there’s something in here about a touch of co-dependency being embedded in the Tremere way of life, which is interesting considering the apprentice transferring aspect almost enforcing a destabilization. I’ve always had a feeling that Strauss’s way of doing things is much more…stable and sensible (by intentional design or otherwise). Like you said, with your version of the Fledgeling having some rose-colored glasses regarding the Tremere because of that. I’ve also always had a feeling that the Fledgeling/Strauss relationship kinds of lives on the edge of that, where it could teeter over into a lot of pitfalls.
I often felt like it would be easy for my Fledgeling in her distress and trauma to rely on him too intensely, and there was always this edge of danger because of that touch of manipulation inherent in Strauss’s handling of her role in the situation with LaCroix. ( I don’t say this as a negative, it pushed some Gothic Romance trope buttons for me as a bit of a dance of ambiguity with a man who’s holding all the cards and you’re not entirely sure you can trust.) So I appreciate how you handled all that here. :)
I remember hearing from a podcast that the Tremere tend to embrace non-consensually; the impression I got was that it’s one of the worst clans re: embracing. You said something about regulations and safety regarding the embrace and I’m interested to know what you mean by that. Was I misinformed, or are we speaking “relatively,” or otherwise? This aspect is kind of relevant to my own OC’s and how I interpret Strauss, so I’d be interested to know more about it.
Thank you for the kind words and for commenting. :) I’m glad to hear that you liked the post.
~
Yeah, there’s also a bit of a conflict in how the Tremere tend to value and embrace people with very strong wills and high ambitions, but then have these same individuals tied to a strict hierarchy with slow advancement. Partially it’s probably intended by design to spur people into competition with each other so that as the result, only the very best rise to the top.
With the apprentice transfers, I believe that the intention is to instill loyalty to the clan as a whole rather than to a singular chantry unit. According to the Lore of the Clans book, in the Tremere’s earliest nights, apprentices got blood bound to their direct superiors, but this caused them to be too slavishly obedient to their masters; this was the very reason for the creation of the Transubstantiation of the 7 ritual, which results in just a weak hook, makes the participant committed to the clan entire rather than any one individual, and also instills a sense of mystery within all the initiated Tremere. Based on this, I can see the point of the transfers, and ideally it works in distributing the clan’s knowledge widely among the pupils. But often in practice, jealous regents are suspicious of new apprentices that come from a potential rival’s chantry and only grudgingly teach only what the Pyramid absolutely requires of them.
I don’t know if I’d use ‘codependent’ to describe the Pyramid or the normal relationships therein… It’s more collaborative, with the focus being on the exclusive sharing and developing thaumaturgy among an insular group, as well as just simply keeping the clan alive with so many external enemies. But there’s much backstabbing and competitiveness in there too. The apprentice-master dynamic survives from the times when they were mortal mages, sure, but it’s not THAT suffocating nor does it make drones out of the apprentices. The revised Tremere clanbook (pg 68) describes a Tremere derangement called Hierarchical Sociology Disorder:
Confronted with a choice, a victim of this disorder looks to the Tremere hierarchy for answers. Every action must be supported by the pyramid. Pressed for a personal opinion, the hapless vampire gives a pat answer or an uncomfortable “I don’t know.” Unsurprisingly, Tremere superiors are quick to weed out neophytes who succumb to this disorder — a drone without personal initiative or imagination is even more volatile than a revolutionary. Such individuals find themselves assigned to dangerous tasks where they’ll succeed with the clan’s interests in mind, die horribly or snap into a more rational state of mind.
~
As for my fledgling, the way she bee-lines into the Pyramid is her way of dealing with her trauma of the embrace and the immediate horrors afterwards. The game doesn’t ever put you in risk of having nowhere to go when the dawn breaks and no safety-nets to fall on, but I roleplayed it as an acute feeling of danger for my character. She knows she’s on thin ice with the fickle and frightening prince and needs a better option. The Pyramid, and the chantry as the concrete embodiment of it, is immediately something attractive to her. She makes it her goal to get inside the Pyramid at the cost of her quests for the prince, and sees it as an inspiring challenge that she soon enjoys. This in turn confirms to Max that she has what a Tremere ought to have, in addition to her Tremere vitae and the power that he has sensed in her.
While still in LA, Phaedra doesn’t have to suffer from any of the internal Tremere strife, since the chantry is nice and the other apprentices satisfied with their current lots and career trajectories. Max wants her to think positively about the clan structure, so he does his best in giving a good picture about the Pyramid. I also think he’s genuine about it, since he has done well within the hierarchy and thinks he can aspire even higher. In my headcanon, Max’s embrace was something he was enthusiastic about when it happened, but his sire turned out to be somewhat disappointing; however, a higher luminary within the Pyramid took notice of Max very soon and he succeeded in rising higher in spite of his sire, which made him see the Pyramid as sort of a meritocracy where bright and apt Tremere can get far if they know how things are.
Continuing my headcanon, in the early 2009, the Pyramid decides that the LA chantry isn’t effective use of the Pyramid resources, since apparently the Camarilla just can’t hold onto the city and maintaining a Tremere presence in an anarch stronghold isn’t worth it anymore. Max is sent on a critical mission for the clan on the East Coast and the apprentices are redistributed. Max utilizes elder fuckery and even uses up a minor boon to finagle Phaedra into a specific chantry that is requiring apprentices for a relatively short period of time – he intends to get her back in a few years’ time after her assignment is finished.
When Phaedra gets reassigned, Max feels slightly melancholic about having to explain that not all Tremere feel that strongly about clan unity and sharing, and that sometimes she will have to be fierce to compete with other Tremere too. It’s not that she’s naïve, just that Max himself likes to have a high opinion of his fellow Tremere and Phaedra has been happy to accept this view since it complements her own experiences so neatly. But he doesn’t want her ignorant either. So he makes sure that she knows what sort of rivalries and issues she can expect from her clan mates. However, he still trusts her to put her clanmates above anyone other.
In her new chantry, Phaedra meets a less rosy and sweet regent as well as other less caring fellow Tremere. Her clan solidarity doesn’t shatter however! She betrays her nossie roommate’s trust for her clan-mates’ interests’ sake like a veritable dove, and spies on the new regent on Max’s behalf and learns much, and becomes all the more tremerey Tremere. But she also encounters far worse ethical dilemmas than she did during her tutelage under Max; specifically the scenario where she is forced to take on her first ghoul and at long last has to wrangle with this basically unavoidable aspect of kindred existence. She actually manages pretty well with the ghoul, though, and saves her from a potentially worse fate for the time being.
~
About the Tremere embraces.
All clans embrace non-consensually. I’ve never seen anything suggesting that the Tremere are any worse than other clans. If someone was asked and they said no, letting them go would be a serious masquerade breach so I doubt anyone really does that much. Maybe the podcast was about stuff like asking one’s mortal lover to join them in unlife and they’d happily consent? That sort of thing would be uncharacteristic of the Tremere, yea.
The Pyramid demands that each new childe is pre-approved by the local regent (in addition to the local Camarilla prince, of course). The Pyramid is picky about who they embrace and therefore there is a lesser amount of impulse embraces or some dumb fledglings brashly embracing their old partners from human life. Ideally, the Tremere embrace only people who will contribute usefully to the clan. The Tremere often evaluate the target for a long time to make sure they’re worthy (something the other clans do too, of course).
I think that Max would approve highly of this discriminating and calculated approach to choosing new Tremere. After all, he doesn’t think well of precipitous indulgences. But like I’ve written in another post, illegal Tremere are taken into the fold as well and the Tremere can profit from unconventional embraces. As for safety, I think Max would ideally monitor a potential childe for a long time to make sure they’d be a good fit and then carefully arrange the embrace itself so that he could be sure that the target is receptive and that there won’t be huge trauma. Ideally, the ceremony of the initiation ritual would flow effortlessly from the act of the embrace, so that the childe feels wonder at rising to new heights and starting their new journey into thaumaturgic mysteries. This would feel very Straussy to me.
In the early nights of the clan, there were two opposing schools on embracing new Tremere from the then-mortal mages of the House Tremere. One faction argued for swift and sudden embraces of all they could (this sometimes resulting in resentful childer and suicides), the other advocated for slow and cautious approach in order to ascertain that the target would be willing. The latter approach won lord Tremere’s approval and became the rule, up until the Massasa War where the clan was forced to blitz-embrace all the remaining Tremere mages. Anyway, since the cautious and slow side won the Founder’s favor, and the leader of said faction (Etrius) was the clan’s leader up until 2008, I think it can be assumed that this outlook still persists among the Pyramid Tremere. That is, the idea that it’s best to prepare the target at first, if at all possible. But well, that’s just my interpretation. The modern nights are a very different world from the early medieval times of the clan. But I think Max would be likely to have studied this early history of the Tremere and learned from it.
The Tremere are also likely to first ghoul a potential childe, have them bound to the clan and let them participate in a tiny amount of its mysteries, and finally reward them with the embrace if they’re good enough. (The Tremere tend to have two extreme opposites of ghoul types: either highly values ones that they hope to embrace one night or entirely expendable ones that can be used e.g. as living bombs that get cursed thaumaturgically and are sent to an enemy nest just to die in a kamikaze attack. For everyday chores, they have homunculi and other lovely creatures.)
~
When someone is embraced into the Pyramid, there’s an initiation ritual where the new childe is asked if they want to “seek forever or rest forever.” At this stage, it’s just an option between being killed on the spot or joining the clan, but it is a choice nonetheless.
I’ve made a previous post on how my fledgling sees the Pyramid embrace practices, so I won’t repeat in detail. Shortly: her own embrace was traumatic and violent and as far as she can tell, done in a spur of a moment. She has extremely dim view of passion embraces, and sees the ideal Tremere embrace as the opposite to what she had to suffer through. The seek/rest question appears to her as vastly superior option and it still is a choice, even if the no leads to swift death.
Eventually Max will tell Phaedra about his own embrace: his sire first approached him as a visiting scholar, and over the course of a few weeks they had many stimulating discussions on lofty matters, with the sire giving veiled hints about having the key to finding some real answers. Phaedra also learns how and why her chantry-mates were embraced. She feels inadequate next to how accomplished they were in life, but also admires how well the Tremere conduct their embraces.
The Tremere are a small clan, being so picky with embraces. For this one I have no source, but I often see it repeated that there are 2000 Tremere total, which isn’t much. So the embraces are also rare, which is no wonder. The apprenticeship can last several decades before a childe is announced as a neonate. It takes up many resources to educate a fledgling properly, so they can’t overextend.
The revised Tremere clanbook says that the Tremere have a high suicide rate among fledglings, because the Pyramid is very demanding of them at the start, in addition to all the normal stuff a newly embraced vamp has to learn. There’s much they need to learn - but then, I think they’d often pick ppl who’d love that. Apprentices on the first tier must visit the chantry at least once per week and meet their superior as often, and “domineering regents” may even demand that they live in the chantry. If that podcast was arguing that the Tremere embraces suck, that might have contributed to it? Ultimately I think it’s prob a matter of taste which clan would be the worst to be embraced into.
If you have any other Tremere questions, I’m happy to answer if I can. :)
My headcanons on how Strauss and my fledgling react to the Pyramid fracturing, and how it affects their relationship.
~
The Inquisition’s strike on the Tremere prime chantry in Vienna occurs in 2008, only four years after the fledgling joins the LA chantry as an apprentice. Like all apprentices, Phaedra underwent the Substantiation of the Seven rite after being accepted, and thereafter was under a weak blood bond to the clan’s Inner Council. After the strike, it slowly becomes evident that the bond to the clan elders is gone. Later on, the Tremere will learn that the essence of their vitae has changed on a fundamental level, making them unable to bind other vampires. This is more upsetting than just the individual Councilors being dead.
Phaedra grows worried over the turmoil that resonates through the clan, all the more so when she sees how badly Strauss reacts to it all. From early on, she has seen the Pyramid as a haven of security and stability, more so than the Camarilla, which she sees as more easily corruptible. All this is largely because of Max’s influence and his actions in securing her trust in her first weeks after the embrace. Phaedra always considered the Tremere to be more happily unified than they really were, due to the sense of togetherness that Strauss successfully promoted in his chantry, and now she is afraid of losing the home she’s found.
But the upheaval doesn’t affect her nearly as much as it does Max. He has been blood bound to the Council of Seven for several centuries and has diligently served the Pyramid all that time. The time he’s existed within the Pyramid is multiple times longer than his mortal life ever was. His sense of order and constancy is badly shaken. The rite of transubstantiation doesn’t make a Tremere into a drone (and if a fledgling demonstrates such tendency they usually are discouraged from it), but it did have its influence on him all the same. The clan structure, the Tremere code, and the bonding that has tied all the loyal Tremere together has worked together to provide Max with a sense of being protected, and been guidelines even when dealing with unsavory individual Tremere. Because he’s been very skilled in navigating the social structure of the clan, he has prospered and holds it in great esteem. (Which in turn ties into my ideas about his embrace and the difficulties he faced early on.)
Strauss lost friends, old mentors and mentees in the inquisition strike, and is crestfallen. He thinks back to the last time he was in Vienna, some century ago, and thinks how he may perhaps never get to return there again. While it’s secondary to the people he and the clan has lost, he mourns sharply the destruction of all the irreplaceable books and magical artifacts that were stored in the prime chantry. The attack is very much a personal tragedy for him, in addition to being a communal disaster
The alteration in the Tremere vitae sets Max to very dark thoughts and fears concerning Tremere. He’s horrified about the possibility of the Founder having died a final death. I tend to think that Max is too low on the hierarchy to know about the rumors of Tremere having switched bodies or about Saulot having corrupted/overtaken him. On one hand Max is old and has been through much, but on the other hand I like to keep Phaedra’s story to relatively grassroots levels, as well as not inflate just how special Max is more than I already do. Then again, with only some 2000 Tremere in existence, Max must be one of the better informed ones… Be that as it may, Strauss in any case is extremely disturbed and worried about the fate of the clan.
~
For Phaedra, it is bewildering to see her mentor and friend in such a state. Her start in her new life was highly traumatizing and frightening, and she downright latched onto the soothing and always helpful Max to cope (literally, in a case or two). After a while, as she regained her old courage and composure, she became a little worried that he’d think less of her for her earlier behavior. Strauss however understood how upsetting the embrace can be, all the more so when it’s not the well-regulated and safe process that the Pyramid administers to new childer. As far as she can see, Strauss is always calm and has vast experience to draw on even in the most difficult of situations. This attack on the clan of course is something entirely unprecedented and Max greatly unprepared.
Even though the Pyramid fracturing does cause worry in Phaedra, her existence within it has been brief. She has never been to Vienna and seen the mighty chantry library on the Ringstrasse nor does she personally know any other Tremere than the ones in the LA chantry. She knows that the Council of Seven existed and was blood bound to them, and as such held them in high esteem. But they’re very distant figures to her, people she’s never even seen. While she understands what a serious problem for the clan it is to lose its (probably) wisest heads, she doesn’t feel it on a personal level. There must be others that can take up on those duties, if Max is any indication of what kind of people the clan has in its ranks. Phaedra has survived the well-nigh intolerable horrors after her embrace, and she feels fairly confident that this too will pass.
Concerning the blood bond, Phaedra had already been sold on the Pyramid before going through the Transubstantiation of the Seven rite. Max had managed winning her over purely by being a positive presence, offering support and guidance (and a dash of manipulation, sure). She had become trusting of Max, all because of his behavior alone. Therefore, she doesn’t think the loss blood bonding will spell an end to the structure either. Of course, her only experience with a regent has been Max, so her attitude is definitely a tad rosy.
~
Lucky to Max - or maybe as much not luck as his good work as a regent and an agreeable nature in general - the other apprentices show no signs of wanting to switch allegiances either. The chantry seems to be surviving this storm as a cohesive unit. All the same, the apprentices worry over their regent who is visibly shaken. Max doesn’t have any meltdowns though, and he does his best to reassure the others that the situation is in control.
Phaedra sees how rattled Max is and wants to support him, the way he’s done for her before and like he is doing even now. Their relationship has already developed to the point where she often spends time in Max’s private chambers, either studying in his study or just them passing the time together. Thus, it’s easy for her to seek Strauss out, even though he’s withdrawn in these nights. Her great worry over seeing the usually so steadfast regent looking insecure at unguarded moments is enough to spur her to offer her support without fearing that she’s being too forward. In turn, Strauss has grown fond of Phaedra, not only because of her diligence and eagerness as an apprentice, but because she’s pleasant to be with and has become a friend to him. There’s now a level of intimacy between them that allows them both to reveal more of themselves to each other.
Even so, at first Max tries not to show weakness, which is an ingrained behavior in him after several centuries of life among (and as) predators that can smell blood in water in seconds. Besides, he doesn’t want to cause even more concern among his apprentices. However, once Phaedra tells him that she can tell he’s anxious and that she wishes to share in his worries, Max relents. He sees that Phaedra is taking the core issue of the Vienna strike with remarkable calmness; he thinks that some of that might be her being ignorant to the severity of the situation, but then again he knows that she’s sharp and has learned well all he’s told about the clan structure. She has shown time and again that she has a good head on her shoulders and keeps going despite various horrors being heaped on her. This alone lifts Max’s spirits.
Seeing her worry and her wish to reassure him makes Max want to open up. He confesses much of his inner turmoil and even allows himself his shoulders sag in her presence, not hiding his sorrow. Phaedra knew that Max was hurt, but she still feels thrown over seeing it so openly. But she doesn’t hesitate in consoling him immediately, trying her best to be courageous in order to best support Max. All the same, she doesn’t pretend to be unaffected either, wanting to weather the storm together with him in mutual support. Phaedra spends much time comforting Max, often just quietly sitting with him or holding him. This is a new level of intimacy in their relationship, developing from their earlier occasional hugs or them lightly touching each other in the course of everyday activities.
She also soothes him with encouraging words or offering some silver lining that she has thought of. She reassures Max by reminding him of how well he already is equipped to enlist the loyalty of new Tremere fledglings that haven’t received the Transubstantiation. What fledgling would say no to a teacher like Max? Max is happy about such sweet words and fondly appreciates Phaedra showing her caring.
~
Phaedra’s support not only makes Max feel better, but it also establishes to him her resilience and that she’s willing to stand with him in times of adversity. His view of her in itself doesn’t change all that much, but he starts considering his own feelings towards her in a new light. Strauss of course likes her much already, finding her pleasant company to be around, an impressive student, and very charming and pretty. There has been very mild flirting between the two.
Max grows to sees Phaedra as someone he can rely on personally when he’s weakened – this of course is momentous in kindred society. Phaedra being there for him makes Max see her as much more mature than he has had an opportunity to before; she in turn feels ever surer about acting familiar towards the elder, having now seen Max being vulnerable and receptive towards being helped out. This signals a slight shift in power dynamics in the relationship, towards something more balanced, which in turn makes it possible for them to become lovers in the future.
Their relations evolve in a more equal direction, as well as faster than they would’ve otherwise. It’s still a relationship between a much older regent and an apprentice, though, so it doesn’t become an epitome of healthy relations, not yet at least. At the time of the game, she is 30 (taking the tail end of the Mandarin’s “between 20 and 30” assessment of the fledgling’s age), and a college graduate who takes on the mindset of a postgraduate student for her chantry studies.
~
When the Council’s hold on the clan shatters, Max of course stays loyal to the Pyramid. He doesn’t even consider defecting and finds all those Tremere that act as if they are liberated slaves to be idiots utilizing the chaos to spread lies. The bond was always more of a polite suggestion to keep one to one’s senses, he thinks. What frightens Max the most is how vulnerable the Tremere have suddenly become. If anything, this is the time to hold together stronger than before.
Strauss maintains a highly positive image of the Pyramid as a way to learn and preserve knowledge, and to keep seeking, which he still considers the highest goal for any Tremere, or indeed anyone with high-minded and wise attitude. The structure has allowed the clan to share and gather knowledge, and teach it further, and he considers it madness to want to do away with that.
Max has worked centuries to become a powerful elder high in the Pyramid ranks. Even with the bond shattering, it serves him very well to keep the structure together. While I think Max truly takes seriously his responsibility to take care of his charges, and to teach them well, he also whole-heartedly enjoys the luxuries and perks that being a regent affords. Max also knows that scattered Tremere will soon be eaten up by their many enemies, so he will keep on working for the Pyramid’s benefit just like before.
All the same, there is a chance that the loss of being blood bound to clan elders might make him a little less deferential towards the new Pyramid’s leadership. I doubt Max has the same kind of high reverence towards Karl Schrekt as he had towards the better-known Council of Seven luminaries, even ignoring the blood bond. Having been at the Thorns, Max likely has at least met Mistress Fanchon and Etrius. Now, Max might want to question some things about the way the Pyramid is ran more often.
For example, I don’t think Max was never a big fan of the frequent apprentice transfers. The Pyramid used to transfer apprentices from chantry to chantry so that no one regent could build a too strong personal power base. (With the risk, of course, that the transferred apprentices might spy for their former, better liked regent – which coincidentally is something Strauss has Phaedra do for him in her new chantry.) Max doesn’t want to stop the practice of transfers altogether either, because seeing the world is good for apprentices. But the world is in much turmoil right now, and having secure home bases will help in fostering trust.
With there likely being several newly opened positions in the Pyramid, Strauss has a good chance of advancing to loftier heights quite soon. He sees the current situation as the perfect moment he’s been waiting for and starts to make serious moves to be promoted to a Lord. If he can yet influence how the new Pyramid conducts itself, he may advocate a more trust-based system. After all, Max himself is good with words and gaining confidence of new apprentices, as his dealings with the fledgling prove. He can work with that. And with no vampiric blood bond available for him, they all will have to.
I take Strauss at face value when he says that he doesn’t aspire to “such lowly heights.” I don’t think he’d ever want to be a prince, especially not the prince of a city as contested as LA. Being a prince is asking for attention, and someone like Max is too wise to desire much of it. The way he’s positioned in the theater box at the trial illustrates his attitude well. He observes the goings-on from some distance and from above, but he’s not obscured either. He doesn’t engage during the trial, other than to dismiss frivolous nonsense, but is lightning fast in sending the carefully composed invitation, privately.
Max’s wording implies that there are loftier heights that he actually finds worth aspiring to. A Tremere who takes their Code to heart wants to seek forever, and Max seems highly invested in the occult and mysteries. When it comes to Max’s personal ambitions for himself, I think he wants to gain knowledge and all that can afford him, first and foremost. Second, he wants to advance in the Pyramid. I think Strauss is on his way to become a Lord. He’s in no hurry, however.
~
It’s curious that Max states LaCroix being a Ventrue as one of the reasons why he dislikes him, “even if he weren’t as young and indiscriminate.” Usually the Tremere get along with the Ventrue decently enough, ever since the clans developed the ruler/advisor dynamic that suits both the best. But it’s probably just Max being a little too candid about his true feelings. It’s not as much that he thinks they shouldn’t be princes as him just liking neither princes nor the Ventrue. That sentiment of course wouldn’t be rare for a Tremere. Admitting it is.
I think Max is more willing to be involved in Camarilla politicking than he’d be by his nature and demeanor, because doing so serves the clan interests. To him, Camarilla is the necessary social structure for kindred survival, while the Pyramid is the mystical community that offers true progress. All the same, he has lived for a very long time and may have developed an interest in the Camarilla social games, like so many elders do.
Taking the primogen position in addition to being the regent is part of it. In my headcanon, Max decided to take the primogen’s mantle out of necessity, causing friction with one of his ambitious apprentices (the fledgling’s sire) who didn’t took well to the elder hogging all the titles and prestige for himself. Max however acted not out of greed, but because he felt the situation was extremely volatile with a young and inexperienced prince who would need to be handled with elder level skills.
The Tremere generally prefer to act as grey eminences behind the throne, or at least that’s what they aspire to. Max fits this stereotype perfectly. The only hitch is that the prince isn’t the type of ruler to take heed of what his advisors tell. Despite not liking princes to begin with, many of them surely are more tolerable than Sebastian is for someone of Max’s experience.
On one hand, I feel like Strauss was trying to keep everything steady and hope that LaCroix doesn’t mess things up too bad for the Camarilla. There probably was no big rush of competent would-be Princes thronging to claim praxis, or they would’ve done so already. Max never wanted the job himself, and never took it either, even after LaCroix’s fall. In the Camarilla ending, I headcanon that Strauss handles the interim governing for a very short time until Tara Kearney tries to claim praxis, and once she fails to keep it, the Pyramid transfers Strauss elsewhere.
On the other hand, Max admits that he is happy with Nines being a thorn in LaCroix’s side, which does support the idea of him wanting LaCroix to fall, despite the potential chaos that might ensue. Perhaps he was wishing that a more competent figure would step up and challenge LaCroix. Maybe he was just waiting for a grave enough failure that he could justifiably prosecute LaCroix without anyone grumbling about the Tremere cooking up nefarious coups to serve their own purposes.
In the Camarilla ending, Strauss was probably already talking with his Lord when the fledgling barges in the chantry common room and interrupts their conference. This is how the Lord knows when to interrupt Max and the fledgling to give out his orders, having listened on. I assume Max had contacted the Lord to report about the blood hunt, which in turn makes me believe that Max had kept the Lord very much up to date about LaCroix’s exploits all the while, and that the Lord might have already been prepared to do something about his indiscretions.
With a Tremere fledgling, the blood hunt is also the second time in a very short time that this Prince is about to execute a Tremere. I would also guess that at neither time did LaCroix consult his primogen about what course of action to take. Something that feels relevant from the revised clanbook:
In turn, the lord makes sure that Tremere business runs smoothly in his area — if a prince gets too uppity in demands of the clan, the lord could arrange for several visitors to make a “demonstration.”
LaCroix shows no appreciation towards his primogen council, so no wonder Strauss isn’t happy with him. I sort of wish there was an option to tattle to Strauss that the brat prince called the primogen mollycoddles and watch his reaction.
~
Max is temperate. He thinks well of true power, but doesn’t like “lust for power.” He also takes note of the fledgling’s power and doesn’t hesitate to take advantage of it – but he doesn’t abuse them either. Instead he offers words of wise guidance and potentially an apprenticeship. He mentions the beast specifically when talking about LaCroix’s treachery, so it’s likely that he makes sure to keep himself in check from any excesses. Considering that you can’t use mental disciplines when frenzying, it makes sense that a Tremere would be extra careful avoiding that loss of control.
However, the Tremere like to embrace ambitious and driven people and being a drone isn’t encouraged either, so having healthy desire to advance is surely seen as a positive quality. Judging from how Max comes across, I think he believes in steady, cautious and resolute advancement for the betterment of both himself, his personal position and safety, and for the good of the clan, his apprentices and friends.
~
It seems evident that Max loves to teach, and in my headcanon he taught at the Vienna University before his embrace. After his embrace, he would’ve advanced studiously, diligently completing all the seven levels for both apprentice and magister tiers, before his promotion to a regent. This would have made him worthy of note to people who appreciate such qualities. I think he was a magister for a quite some time, and happy with that position, teaching fledglings and neonates and being good at it. All the while he worked on his own research and growing in knowledge and power.
Strauss having been present at the Convention of Thorns is retroactive and I’m not sure if the VTMB devs intended him to be as old as that. But I can’t imagine taking such an honor away from him either, so I won’t headcanon it any different~ When I played the game, though, I figured him to be some 300 years old. He is a wise elder, but “only” a regent. Someone of 600+ years and extremely prestigious background could easily be way higher advanced, right? Max doesn’t come across to me as an underachiever or a failure, so I don’t want to see him as having been shoved into a shitty city to be gotten rid of.
I think Strauss is highly efficient and powerful thaumaturge who gets sent by the Pyramid to handle volatile and difficult situations. He is calm and reliable, as well as a very dangerous. I headcanon him as having served as an archon (a quaesitor specifically!) under some past justicar. It would make sense with his loyalty to the Camarilla and his keen dislike towards a misbehaving prince. All the same, his first duty is to the Pyramid and he doesn’t hesitate to advance the Tremere’s interests first and foremost, which fits the common distrust towards the quaesitors. Note that no one in LA seems to talk positively about Strauss, despite him being incredibly polite and well-mannered towards the fledgling.
Max might have served as a regent before, too, but doesn’t mind being assigned to another duty, since he’s spry for his age and enjoys learning new things. When he’s the regent in LA, his Lord knows of his past accomplishments and can count on him to act on the behalf of the Pyramid, should the need arise.
~
Well, this was me finally finishing one of two Strauss posts I started to work on a couple of months ago. The second one is about Max, my fledgling and the Pyramid’s fracture specifically and I will post it soon.
@idreamtofmanderleyagain The fem!Tremere is gorgeous. I love the first and the final outfits the most, but I also like how the third outfit can be gotten around the same time she becomes Max’s apprentice. She and him can be all maximum red Tremeres together at the chantry, afterwards. (Well, it’s only much afterwards that they link arms like this, but still.)
I also like to think that Strauss finds the little red ribbon in her hair becoming.
Is there a source for the claim that Strauss was based on Morpheus? I’ve noticed several people saying this, but no one has ever told where it’s from. If there’s some dev interview or something that I’ve missed, I’d like to see, if anyone has a link.
I don’t think I ever saw anyone make this claim this before the “Hello neo/neonate” meme on reddit. After, people noted a resemblance in their attire (both wear shades + long coats) and wondered if it were a coincidence. But now it’s being stated as an absolute fact that that Strauss’ design was copied off Morpheus’ and more people seem to be repeating it as a result.
It feels weird that anyone would bother inventing misinformation about a vidja gaem NPC, which is why I wonder if I have just missed out on some commonly known dev commentary or what.
I wrote in a previous post how the Tremere tend to accept illegally embraced fledglings into the Pyramid, with only some cold shoulder given for both the childe and the sire from the more stuck up Tremere. In this post I’ll continue with some ideas about what Strauss may have thought about the fledgling and sire’s trial. (Also, since I’m talking about Strauss in 2004, I’ll keep to the pre-Vienna strike lore when it comes to the Tremere.)
Out of all the clans, the Tremere have probably the strictest rules for embracing new fledglings. Every new embrace requires the regent’s approval, with the potential embraces often carefully vetted to suit the needs of the clan rather than just those of the sire (at least in theory). This of course in addition to the local Prince showing green light. Yet despite this, the Tremere also in the habit of approving illicitly embraced fledglings into the fold all the same. As long as the fledgling is ready to swear fealty, that is.
The 3rd Tradition of the Camarilla is very different from the Pyramid attitude:
Thou shall only Sire another with the permission of thine Elder. If thou createst another without thine Elder’s leave, both thou and thy Progeny shall be slain.
The way I see it, these two approaches are bound to clash at times. But the Tremere don’t usually like to clash openly, and it would go against their image as a staunch and crucial pillar of the Camarilla to do so. Hence also Strauss not protesting during the trial, even with the accused being Tremere.
With the Camarilla laws and Tremere customs conflicting, it could mean that it’s not uncommon that if a regent finds out about an illegal embrace before anyone else does, they might try to hide the new fledgling for evaluation. Unless the new embrace is a totally worthless, they then tell the sire to go and ask the Prince for a formal approval, maybe with a letter by the primogen telling that they stand behind the request, and only afterwards act open about the new Tremere. (Of course, if there’s a risk that someone saw the fledgling, it might not be worth it for the elders, and they can just abandon the sire and childe to their fate.) Later on, the sire would be disciplined internally at the chantry. I can imagine the sire getting sent to another chantry on an apprentice transfer, with the regent taking over instructing the new fledgling. Likewise with Strauss, after the fledgling is saved, he’s ready to allow her into the Pyramid after some evaluation.
(Of course, this requires that the sire is willing to work within the Pyramid after having committed the embrace, and same for the childe of course. There are probably cases where the rebellious sire wouldn’t yield to the Pyramid after having done the deed, and so an execution might serve the sire’s superiors just as well. In such a case, it could be that Strauss could’ve yet accepted the sire’s execution, but would’ve grown significantly more upset about the fledgling meeting the same fate.)
Strauss’ behavior seems to fit the clan lore well, and I can see the above scenario of hiding the transgressors as something he too might do under appropriate circumstances. The gargoyle serves as an important example of Max being willing to disregard the Camarilla laws if they’re in conflict with Tremere clan culture. I find it it easy to assume that this is also what’s going on with his apparent disapproval of the trial (and LaCroix) when he discusses it with the fledgling at the chantry.
Sure, he could just be lying because he scarcely can tell the fledgling that he’s sorry that the anarchs shouted down the respected Camarilla tradition and what a shame you weren’t killed, whelp – but that seems unlikely with how lenient he generally seems to be. Max could also just be unhappy that LaCroix can’t read the audience in an anarch majority town, making it harder to win hearts and minds for the Camarilla, but I think that is at most an additional grievance he may have, same as his general dislike of the Prince.
It could potentially also be Strauss just trying to win the fledgling over, representing them almost dying as the fault of the bad Prince, rather than a Camarilla built-in feature. That, I think, might be partially true. In Camarilla domains, there’s nothing irregular about a sire and illegally embraced childe both being killed. Strauss has likely witnessed such executions before. He doesn’t really touch this when talking to the fledgling, true, but that doesn’t mean that he usually is the biggest fan of executing those that breach the third tradition.
In general, it would suit the Tremere to normally not care much if fledglings of other clans get executed, but seek to protect their own in the same circumstances if they’re able. So there would be no general disapproval among the Tremere against the 3rd Tradition, and after all, on paper it does help greatly to bolster their own very strict rule against the apprentices going and siring on their own. It’s just that when an unfortunate accident does happen, they are willing to go soft on the hopefully contrite transgressors on their own, if possible. The law as it exists suits the Tremere more or less, and I doubt that Strauss would want it downright removed either.
Yet with his flexible attitude towards the sect and its rules, Max probably doesn’t see the Traditions as absolute moral codes, and I think this goes to most of the Tremere in general, considering their Clan First approach. Let’s not forget that even the Tremere Code comes with loads of peripheral codes that provide workarounds for wise Tremere who want to do something that’s ostensibly forbidden. An elder like Max would know much about that. As a Pyramid loyalist, he would hold the Camarilla Traditions as even less written in stone (again see the gargoyle for proof).
Strauss would generally consider the clan traditions superior to the Camarilla ones, and I think it’s also likely that he has seen instances where the clan has welcomed newly embraced childer just like the fledgling, and later seen those apprentices having proven themselves useful to the clan.
This can potentially carry over to how Strauss thinks about illegal embraces in general, even outside the clan. He knows that mistakes happen, and with proper guidance, the unintended childer can be taken under the clan’s protection. Considering Max’s willingness to guide the fledgling no matter what their clan, he probably doesn’t like to see blameless and clueless fledglings of other clans killed in such an undeserved way either. In general, I don’t think Strauss revels in cruelty or killing, despite all the things he must have done to survive to be an elder.
I may have written basically the same thing before, but to put it shortly, Strauss see the Cam as a necessity to survive, not just for the Tremere, but to the entire species. The sect is very important and has to be held up, but Strauss sees it as a means but not as an end goal. He has a very realpolitik attitude to the sect, especially when compared to the mysteries of the Tremere that he has a more personal approach to.
Since I’m talking about the trial, I’ll just have to add how much I love the dynamic between Strauss and the fledgling there. She has her head down for the entire duration of the trial, and only after her hands are untied does she look up, after a relieved shrug. And she looks up right at Strauss, who in turn is shown to look down at her. And we get Max’s viewpoint of the fledgling looking up like a lost kitten.
And then Strauss immediately after rushes to write his invitation, ignoring the Sabbat ambush because it’s not like they can touch him anyway~~ (I like to think he has a little stationary set hidden somewhere inside his coat. All ready for any new poems to write down.)
I like this interaction a lot, especially in the context of the invitation that the fledgling finds soon after. She doesn’t yet know her own clan (it takes until Bertram giving her shit over being a Tremere that she learns it for certain) – but she has an inkling and immediately thinks of the man he saw at the theater, with the shared look having already then felt more significant than just someone being idly curious about the spectacle of the night, and him definitely seeming like the type to send monogrammed invitations too. I’ve previously pondered whether there’d be some clan affinity being involved, but have decided against it. It’s just a feeling from feeling someone’s eyes on you.
This is a response to @sadnessofthingspostHere, it was getting super large so I figured it needed another break.
There’s a lot of stuff for me to respond to here and several different people’s viewpoints so I’m gonna try my best to keep this coherent lol.
So to start with I think I need to clarify that I actually didn’t intend to come across like I wanted to remove a ton of darkness from WOD or Strauss’s character! It’s hard to put what I meant into words, but lets just say, I’m not really discomforted by the idea that he frankensteined some tortured enemies. For context, I also write for the Hellraiser franchise. I’m not discomforted by characters who do horrific, monstrous things.
That said, when it comes to characters who I frame as protagonists or (not True Evil type villains) I just prefer to juxtapose that with exploration into their humanity.
So in other words, I definitely see Strauss as a character with the capacity for cruelty, manipulation, violence, dispassion, the ability to torture if he sees reason to, and a lacking empathy. I also already knew that there was something gruesome involved with the creation of a Gargoyle which involved using a vampire, I just wasn’t aware of what exactly that was before you clarified and also was curious if the game was accurate to that, because that aspect seemed unclear to me and would help inform the conversation more if it was. I definitely see Strauss as a monstrous being, because that’s what it means to be an elder vampire in WOD 9 times out of 10. I’m certain that he was at least 50% of the time manipulating the Fledgling because he saw her as becoming a quickly important pawn on the board against LaCroix’ rule and a potential benefit to his Clan.
The point of my take on the gargoyle is more…me finding a point of reference to explore his capacity for monstrosity and what it means to him. I think @robotslenderman was on point with the idea that he could have gone through with something monstrous and had a complex emotional reaction to it that he did not expect, which is definitely what I was getting at.
And this is major spoilers, but I should probably also point out that I’ve been percolating all that in my head specifically because I’m writing a Strauss/OC fic that involves a human woman in the place of the Fledgling.
So basically the bare skeleton of my concept is that my main character is a human who was illegally Embraced, but that Embrace did not take. The problem here is that upon examination of the evidence, it is acknowledged that this Should Not Have Happened, which reads as highly suspicious and potentially dangerous in regards to the problem (and the apocalypse anxieties) of Thin Bloods in recent Nights. (to be clear, I’m working with the assumption that in most cases such a thing as this is impossible in WOD without it being Ominous af).
Because Strauss is the Tremere Primogen of LA, she ends up in his hands so he may interrogate her memory of events (and of the Tremere that tried to turn her), as well as so he may use his knowledge of blood magic in order to experiment upon her to report his findings to the Prince (as well as his Lord).
My reasoning for this concept is A) I really like working with powerless heroines who need to use their brains to navigate impossible situations, and B) I wanted to explore the vampire romance genre staple trope of a Special-Blooded Human Girl, but in the extreme cutthroat politics/horror universe of VTM. But I digress.
Anyway, The fact that my protagonist is so fragile is relevant to where I was coming from is because I wanted to explore the idea of this jaded, cold-hearted, manipulative elder having to contend with humanity in close quarters so directly for an extended period of time without the possibility of Ghouling (at least not one that takes for very long, same re: Dominate), and inevitably growing attached and thus forced to examine himself and his world through her lens.
And also maybe especially because I’m navigating the lacking ethics of performing any kind of experiments upon an unwilling party (even if what he does is delicate and non-violent).
Sorry if I missed a point that any of you wanted to hear my response on, that post was getting massive lol! Feel free to ask me about something if you want more follow-up.
I really appreciate your takes, it’s great to talk with people interested in this and also because it’s also helping build my informational context from VTM proper that I might otherwise be missing just from experiencing Bloodlines alone.
Thanks, I hope it’s been useful. I also hope I didn’t ’t derail the thread too much by speaking about Max in general, in context of the game and the VTM lore, rather than just your headcanon and the story you have.
That said, when it comes to characters who I frame as protagonists or (not True Evil type villains) I just prefer to juxtapose that with exploration into their humanity.
Yeah, I know and have already agreed on this principle. :) Like I’ve said, I don’t think there’s a big difference in how we explore Strauss’ character, just different focus points and differing opinions on some attributes of his. I envision him having his own doubts and insecurities too, and merely just don’t see him having any significant ones about the gargoyle, other than being upset at it going disloyal, and mortified about both having lost control of it and the potential consequences if the illegal deed comes to light.
I see Max being complex and human character, having both positive and negative sides. After all, that is how the game itself presents him to us – it’s plain text. I also love how his writing is subtle enough for us to have had an interesting conversation like this, with different ideas about what he might think about some issues. Game good.
So I’ve been more just rambling about Max and what I see his character as, and not arguing against your interpretation of him. That’s why I’ve mused about his history, the 15th century stuff, and about his potential reasons for making the gargoyle during his earlier nights in LA. It’s incredibly fascinating to me. Basically I really love analyzing the character and his situation, taking what the game tells and shows and supplementing it with lore, and enjoying the story that emerges from the roleplay.
There’s also obviously no reason that Max can’t have complex response to something bad he’s done, and no one has claimed so. No one has said that he’s all black or uncomplicated. What I’ve done in my replies is look at how he behaves in the game and conclude that it seems unlikely that he is in throes of regret when it comes to making and enslaving gargoyles. I didn’t mean to imply it’s the only possible reading though.
Thanks for telling about your story. I can see how the experiment angle w/r/t the gargoyle relates very strongly to what’s going on with your OC, though I don’t know what the ‘special blood human’ trope is. The premise sounds very much like the existing stuff about thinbloods, however, so I can imagine Max approaching your OC as a thinnie variant at first. Sounds like it’ll be interesting.
As for Strauss, I think that he keeps up and has a good handle on his humane side. He invites the fledgling over no matter their clan, instead of just using pawns like elders often do. When I played the game first, I was all glad that the game has such rich clan content that the fledgling gets invited over by their primogen. And then later I found out that nope, only Max does that, and he does it to everyone lol. But it tells much about his character. (And well, about the game budget too, sadly.)
Max gives the impression that he likes guiding young fledglings, likely especially the new chantry apprentices who are still very close to their humanity. That helps him stay in touch with contemporary world too, despite also being stuffy and very much inured in the inhuman world of the kindred with its own skewed morals. Not to say he doesn’t have his jyhad game angle in this, or that he’s all mushy either, just that he is fairly active and spry for an elder, and he’s welcoming and nice to young vampires. So in this instance, I think you consider him more callous than I do, when it was vice versa with the gargoyle. :p Different focus points, is all.
As for Max telling the fledgling about the gargoyle, since he tells about his secret to a Tremere without even the persuasion check, I still see it as a final impromptu trustworthiness test for the Pyramid invitation. For non-Trem fledglings, there’s the high persuasion required, meaning that Max was probably perturbed and willing to take a risk if it leads to the problem being finally solved.
Still, he allows the fledgling an access to the chantry library and has set the book on thaumaturgic creatures handily open on the part on gargoyles, so maybe it all was part of a test to see if the fledgling can be a trusty ally. That goes also for non-Tremeres. Of course, that implies that Max had a really good alibi shielding him from any true consequences other than embarrassment. (But I’m not sure if I put too much stock on the book being placed by him, since it’s such a clear game-play hint. Might be Max just was reading the book himself out of exasperation, or an apprentice trying to figure how to find and kill the gargoyle for the regent, and didn’t bother locking the library after leaving, because it’s not the main one in the chantry.)
About the Camarilla, Max’s willingness to see an incompetent Prince removed doesn’t mean that he doesn’t really support the sect, I think. He wouldn’t talk so much about the fledgling proving their loyalty to the Cam if he didn’t; he’d frame his end game talk more as about just doing what’s best for the city and its kindred. All the same, there’s also what I’ve said before about the Tremere seeing Camarilla as a means to an end.
Getting admitted into the Camarilla was hugely crucial for the Tremere, since their existence was still somewhat more fraught than that of the more established clans, despite the worst early years being past now. They needed the security, and Max who was present at the Thorns likely believed in this too, and he has seen thorough centuries how well his clan has prospered as a Camarilla pillar.
You didn’t ask me, and I don’t intend to crowd the discussion anymore, but no one in the setting has any illusions about the Tremere being clan first. It’s a big reason why all other clans suspect them, since they can assume that no matter how good buddies they make with a Tremere, they will discard you if the clan elders require. (Vienna strike changes this premise of course, but that’s after the game’s time.) The idea is that if you fuck over one Tremere, they will tell their regent, and soon the entire chantry is giving you trouble. This makes the clan stronger, but gives them a reputation.
Max has no worries about the fledgling knowing his priorities, and congratulates her on her astute guess about his loyalties. He likely doesn’t think there’s any point in trying to pretend it’s any different, and takes pride in the clan unity. The Tremere in fact find it very important to present a unified face, to make outsiders think twice before trying to make moves against them. And that’s why even after the Pyramid took a bad hit, the three House heads at least agree to have some sort of Clan First policy still, despite all the internal strife.
I think Max wants to see a competent Prince in charge, so that he (and his clan) can operate securely behind the Prince’s throne. Although I admit that it seems that Max in general isn’t a fan of princes, but I think that’s more about individual princes not reaching his standards than the position itself existing. Max believes in hierarchy, after all. He also never tries to claim praxis for himself. Again, LA is a difficult city to hold, and I believe Max would love to see a decent Prince succeed in taking it back for the Sect so that he and his chantry could operate in peace.
Well, that was again a ton lore talk from me, my intention was not to do that again. :/ I’ll leave it be though, can be ignored. Thanks for the discussion, all the same.
There’s a lot in here that ultimately I’m not too familiar with to speak on yet (LABN, Lore book references, etc.). That said, I do have a few responses:
So regarding the Gargoyle, my view is that Strauss has some unresolved, unacknowledged feelings of guilt tied to his actions and his toxic relationship with the Gargoyle. Much of the things he says about the Gargoyle read to me like someone still trying to mentally justify the bad choices he made by placing the blame on the shoulders of the being he harmed. If Strauss 100% felt like the Gargoyle needed to be gotten rid of, he would have done it himself a long time ago instead of letting his massive, potentially dangerous secret just hang about unchecked wherever it liked. I cannot imagine that he’s afraid of it, or not powerful enough to handle it. Perhaps he pushes the problem onto the Fledgeling because he can’t bring himself to harm it directly but is realizing that the issue was getting out of control. Honestly the entire situation with the Gargoyle shakes the level of integrity and strength Strauss otherwise manages to have, which is interesting to me. It’s a stain on his record that humanizes him quite a bit. I think the choices with which the Fledgeling is left with kind of left me wanting, because it wasn’t really possible to do the right thing for the Gargoyle (I’m including the possibility to give him to Isaac in that statement).
I actually forgot that you used the phrase “staunch traditionalist,” I’m sorry if you thought I was directing the statement at you! I was really speaking more broadly about the fandom, I think outside of the Strauss fans he can kind of get a little boxed-in. I think it’s clear that those in the Strauss fandom have unique takes and definitions of what his traditionalism means, which is cool.
Regarding VV, like I said, I don’t know that I truly ship them as much as I’m intrigued by the drama of their emotional dynamic. Which I want to make clear, I do NOT think they actually had a secret affair, nor do I see Max treating a woman that way. I strongly feel that he never let her take things in the direction of a relationship. However I also think that it’s not impossible that he could have harbored complex feelings about her. His response to her in the opening sequence could be less cruel than it seems at face value, especially if they are old acquaintances and are used to engaging in a little dance of her play-flirting and him scoffing in response.
That said, I don’t think he finds her sly seductiveness appealing. I’m not sure that “femme fatale” has good chemistry with him.
That’s unfortunate about LABN.
Thanks for the reply!
I like your gargoyle interpretation, and it makes a lot of sense. Max does seem a bit careless with the entire thing. Your reading could even solve one of the issues I have with this quest. That is, if you convince the gargoyle to join Isaac and lie to Strauss about it, he never learns the truth. I realize that this is so that diplomacy build characters can still get the Tremere haven and have access to the Cam ending. Yet I don’t like it, because it makes Max seem far too clueless. Ideally, I think that the next time you go to the chantry after having lied to him, Strauss should’ve wised up and throw your sorry ass to the street.
But if Strauss was feeling as bad about the gargoyle as you postulate, then maybe he could’ve learned the truth, yet decided not to act on it. (Max knowing the trust might be the case anyway, should he be interested in yet manipulating the fledgling for his own purposes, despite knowing her to be untrustworthy.) Might work. Although I’ve never even chosen this option myself. I’ve always just killed the gargoyle.
What would you consider as being the right thing to do with the gargoyle? Convince it to leave the city for somewhere safer, maybe going and buying some supplies for it first or something? Perhaps that could be implied in the Isaac option, since anarchs usually aren’t fans of keeping slaves. If the gargoyle dislikes working for Isaac, maybe he’ll just tell it to leave.
One option that I’d like would be just telling Max where the gargoyle is, but not offer to kill it for him. That way a non-combat build fledgling could still get positive disposition with Max (though a lesser amount), without having to betray him. Later you’d hear on the radio about there having been ruckus at the theater.
Personally, though, I can’t see Max having any scruples about having created this gargoyle, and I can see him going and making another one yet (I made a post on the topic some days ago). It takes dedication to learn the Gargoyle Creation Ritual, which is a very involved, long and grisly process. Even if he previously considered gargoyles to be just dull-minded servitors that are harmless to have, learning about the ritual would’ve made him reconsider that.
Max must have acquired two prisoners of two different clans (Nosferatu, Tzimisce, Gangrel; pick two depending what result you want) and then mutilated and tortured them in an agonizing process until their minds blanked out, giving him a blank canvas to work with conditioning. Then he would’ve dismembered and stitched them together again into an abomination and then let it cook for months in a pod, with occasional ritual chants. If his heart was too soft for this project, he probably would give up already when reading the instructions.
After doing all of this, how nice feelings could he have towards the resulting gargoyle, especially after it rebelled? I feel that to be able to preserve his sense of integrity, Strauss would have to consider the gargoyle’s existence and its role as his servitor as justified.
Furthermore, considering that Max seems very cautious and thoughtful character, I think it’s highly likely that he had already had closer interactions with gargoyles before deciding to create his own. Max starting to bond with the gargoyle after its creation, and feeling bad about the horrible things he had done, it somehow sits ill with the rest of it, in my interpretation of him. I think he really does have a high capacity for extremely unethical sorcery, and has a calm peace of mind over it, too. I think it makes him more interesting too, especially when it comes to how I envision my Tremere fledgling’s apprenticeship under him.
As for Strauss having the fledgling handle the gargoyle, that’s a cool interpretation. Even if he felt bad, his personal safety and duty to the Pyramid would eventually force his hand. I can imagine Max feeling conflicted while waiting at the chantry for the fledgling to return, maybe also feeling bad about thrusting this unjust murder unto the poor neonate?
However, I just see it as an elder using a pawn, as is their wont. (As well as a great final test for a potential new apprentice.) Max already had the anti-gargoyle amulet in his pocket, probably ready at all times to rush to action if he learned of its whereabouts. The amulet is powerful and Max trusts that its power combined with all the skill the fledgling has already shown ought to be enough to deal with the issue, so there’s no need for him to go out himself, attracting attention in Hollywood and making locals connect the dots between a rampaging gargoyle and the Tremere regent strutting about.
Maybe it’d make more sense for Max to thank the fledgling for the news, and send a 100% trusted apprentice for the kill instead, but then again there’d be no quest for us. Besides, things are already in motion, Isaac knows about the gargoyle, and the fledgling may very well go and check the theater out anyway. It makes sense for Max to ask the fledgling to do this IMO.
Still, I can see where you’re coming from with your reading though. He could’ve even just led the gargoyle slip away and claim it escaped when his Lord came asking, assuming he really started to feel bad about his deed. But considering the heavy danger he’d be placing himself in by doing so, I can’t see him doing that, even setting aside the rest.
I think the gargoyle fled only very recently. A month ago at maximum, but probably less. It would’ve been in hiding, and Max wouldn’t have yet heard about it being sighted in Hollywood. Max seems surprised to hear that the fledgling has information on it, after all. If the gargoyle decided to tell everyone about its history, Strauss would be in serious trouble. Hence, I can’t imagine him not acting immediately if he knew where it was lurking.
According to the Montmartre Pact, any Tremere caught having created gargoyles is to be stripped from any Tremere protections and given over to the Gangrel and the Nosferatu to be judged – and they are NOT fans of their clan mates being subjected to Tremere experimentation. Not a pleasant prospect, right. In practice, the Tremere of course cover and lie for anyone accused, but still it would be a serious issue, and Max’s peers and his Lord would be cross with him, at the very least. So even if Max did feel bangs of guilt, I think his self-preservation and desire to protect the clan from shame would override it, and the gargoyle would die, no matter how sad. Yet, considering how cool and stern he sounds when telling of the gargoyle, I doubt he felt a thing.
As for Max’s integrity w/r/t the gargoyle, yesterday I was discussing the gargoyle quest with a friend, and realized that Strauss references the gargoyle as being sentient. Canonically, they are of course sapient, and if Max knows the Creation Ritual, he surely knows this too. He even acknowledges that his gargoyle desired freedom and was unhappy with its lot in life.
This could just be Max downplaying the slavery aspect when talking to the fledgling. But otherwise during this convo, Max doesn’t hesitate to make it clear that gargoyles are just a servant race undeserving of freedom. So it could also be him trying to justify the entire thing to himself, making it seem less like an atrocity, with the gargoyle comparable to animals or other thaumaturgic servitors the Tremere make. On the other hand, Max seems like he’d be exact with his words, and not allow himself to cover up any truths by sticking to inaccurate terminology. So I don’t know. Hell, it can also just be the dev who wrote the line mixing up sapient and sentient, since I’ve seen it happen a ton in media.
All in all, I think Strauss probably has at least a mild case of Tremere supremacy thing going on, despite being very polite and welcoming to the fledgling no matter their clan. Sorry to bring up the lore books again, but Libellus Sanguinis 2 had good bits about how Dark Ages era Tremere had these very disdainful attitudes to the clans they used for gargoyle materials, such as seeing the Gangrel as very animalistic. Ditto for capturing werewolves for experimentation without any compunctions. (This book also had the phrase “incorrigible tendency to experiment” which is such a perfect way to describe the Tremere lol.) The mirror side of this would be the high respect for the “high clan” Camarilla pillars, such as the Malkavians, who Max sees as seers, complimenting nicely his own mystical leanings.
Anyway, Max probably isn’t as callous as those oldest Tremere in the clan’s earliest days as described in the Dark Ages books. But he may still harbor some such sentiments. After all, he has to somehow convince himself that what he does is more or less right. I think Max’s main goal in life is “to seek forever,” i.e. keep on gaining occult and other knowledge, and next to serve his clan (and therefore serve himself and his young Tremere charges under him). So going by that, he can justify much already.
Furthermore, he can pick experiment subjects that were hostile to him to begin with. In LA, he would’ve had access to crazed Tzimisce shovelheads. Maybe a Nosferatu that got caught trying to sneak into the chantry to spy? Max would have the excuse that these kindred would have to be executed anyway, and this way they are usefully recycled at least. With their minds dying, the resulting creature isn’t really them anymore, anyway.
Also I can’t lie, I love the horrible Tremere track record. There’s always some new bit of lore that tops the previous atrocity of theirs. And then acting all innocent after. I don’t think Strauss could’ve advanced that high in the Pyramid and lived for centuries without knowing how things are in his clan’s culture, while still being a great and bouncy Pyramid advocate to fresh little fledglings.
Hm, personally I still have hard time seeing the trial scene between Strauss and VV as nothing else than her just being an intentionally irreverent tease towards the oldest (and in her view, the stodgiest) Camarilla dignitary in the building, and Strauss just making it abundantly clear that he has absolutely zero interest. Maybe it’s because I found his reaction very relatable, having had to block unwanted attentions with the hand before… I agree with you that VV very much doesn’t seem like his type, anyway.
I hope I haven’t blathered too much. It’s just mega fascinating to learn how other ppl see Strauss.
I guess I mostly see him having a soft spot for fellow Tremere, and especially for fledglings that are in need of teaching and protection. I see Max as someone who loves to educate and to encourage neonates to find their own solutions, and that attitude can also extend for fledglings of other clans, as the game shows. (With the strict limit to what he is willing to tell to non-Tremere.)
If he has any dislikes about the usual Tremere/Pyramid methods, I think it’s mostly that he prefers encouraging clan togetherness from positive examples first, and instilling a desire for knowledge seeking, as is the clan’s supposed ideal. The less nice side to him is that I don’t think he ultimately cares that much about outsiders, despite often having respect and admiration towards them. If it comes down to it, he’ll always back his own clan. So while he can be welcoming and decorous to a Gangrel fledgling that has unusual power and hope the best for their future, he however doesn’t have qualms about using another Gangrel for gargoyle parts if the situation merits.
Thanks for responding, I’m enjoying the exploration of his character with you as well.
So I think maybe it’s relevant to sort of clarify where I’m coming from, because to be honest VTM is chock full of ambiguously amoral characters, so there’s kind of a sliding scale of darkness regarding what we can potentially see each character doing. It’s very YMMV in that way.
For me, while I love to engage with dark universes and horror themes, and while I find monster and villain male characters intriguing, what makes darkness interesting to me is how we juxtapose that darkness against the humanity within them (at least for characters who engage emotionally with a protagonist in a way that isn’t meant to be toxic or based on pure hate). I’m compelled by the capacity for healing and hope and restorative justice in stories chock full of darkness. The horror and cutthroat vamp politics are fun elements, but I personally like to balance the grim with spots of light, otherwise it gets too bleak for me. I’m definitely not a GOT fan, for example.
So while Strauss’s capacity for darkness is interesting to me, I really want to explore his humanity along side of that. I like delving in the psychology of it, particularly when it comes to the dueling emotional experiences of past humanity vs. monstrous reality. Especially because he’s one of the oldest vamps in the game, and how much age must have affected his desensitization to cruelty and darkness.
Now, again, I’m not strong on my understanding of VTM lore, so I don’t know my timelines well enough to fully understand where Strauss might have been for major events and laws put into place and how that factors into all this. I really couldn’t speculate on where in time the Gargoyle comes into play. That said, I think it’s fair to say that Bloodlines may be trying to stuff quite a lot of lore into it as a primer for the WOD, and someone decided it would be interesting to pop a Tremere Gargoyle into the plot without fully thinking through the plot holes the whole thing might create. They may not have expected some fans to explore this quest that deeply. I think this is especially true considering the fact that he would be so harshly punished for it. It seems…rather foolish to create something so hulking and big and loud and extremely visible if it’s this much of a crime, and to let it live after it started rebelling on top of that? It sounds like something that that wasn’t entirely well thought out on the writer’s part. It makes much more sense as a retroactive justification to have a Gargoyle battle in a video game.
I also want to ask if the way the Gargoyle looks in Bloodlines is accurate to what they are supposed to look like as frankenstien’ed vamps in VTM? Does the monster presumably through magic start looking like a stone carving? Because if not, it might be worth examining whether Bloodlines’ concept of a Gargoyle is the same as the grisly VTM lore process.
All that said, if the game is 100% true to VTM lore, then it’s unavoidable that cruel, destructive process is what Strauss perpetrated to create a Gargoyle. But I would argue that for a 700+ year old vamp, who’s seen multitudes of cruelties and learned to have the capacity for it himself, it may have been relatively emotionally easy to torture and brutalize Sabbat enemies, whom are far crueler monsters in their own right, than it would be to harm an innocent the same way.
The thing about the Gargoyle in VTMB is that it comes across very much like an innocent in the game. It’s angry and violent, but it’s heartbroken. It’s been betrayed. It may be brutal, but it approaches everything with an absolute sense of justice, which presumably must have been to at least some degree instilled in it by Strauss. It was when he found Strauss (and presumably others) acting in a way that belied it’s own ethics that it decided vampires as a whole were untrustworthy monsters.
Imagine for a moment you bring yourself to torment and enemy and craft it into a what is supposed to be a mindless monster guardian, enslaved to your magic. You justify this for yourself because you used true monsters to create this thing, and it’s not supposed to be a person anyway. Suddenly, the being you created has lost so much of it’s former self that it has been rendered an innocent - one that has thoughts and feelings and a growing sense of justice that is moving beyond your teachings. Where then do you place it in your own personal ethics? What does it become to you? Maybe you even start to feel affection for it, like it’s a good guard dog.
And if it wants it’s freedom, and you decide you must refuse, how do you justify this to yourself?
In my mind, it would be easier, but also incredibly selfish and cruel, to compartmentalize the whole thing. “Gargoyles are sentient but not sapient. Gargoyles are too brutish and need to be controlled, or they will wreak havoc. I might as well have it put down to solve this problem.” I would also say this especially because the whole thing in canon evokes the emotional themes of Frankenstein so much.
So while I too think Strauss is capable of behaving unethically (because all vamps in VTM are like that on a sliding scale), my view of this situation is that it became far murkier for him than he initially expected, and it’s one of his greater shames, one that he is still failing to acknowledge properly within himself.
And while it’s possible he could take Ghouls, in my mind maybe Ghouling comes pretty close to home re: the Gargoyle. Maybe his distaste for the Heather situation is subconsciously rooted in his own shame regarding the Gargoyle.
The tragic thing is that again, the Gargoyle’s hate for Strauss clearly seemed to be based in a sense of betrayal. It’s in a great deal of pain. Which suggests it felt a bond with Strauss.
I would have liked a way to address that pain in a way that would not have resulted in putting it under the thumb of another vampire, whether he enslaves it or not.
(Also, to be honest at the end of the day I have to take personal preference with fiction into account. Fantasy creature enslavement as a trope just makes me uncomfortable, and it just doesn’t personally sit right for me to like the guy without examining this through a lens of remorse and restorative justice. I can’t comfortably ship a Fledgeling or OC or whatever with him if he’s just super 100% fine with enslavement, let alone a supremacy mindset, unless that is being addressed. Ghouls are a slippery slope for me as well, but I can handle it as a concept as long as we’re examining the moral boundaries of it and the personal ethical limits (or lack-thereof) of different vamps.)
Thanks for replying. :) I like your idea of a conflicted Strauss struggling with remorse. It sounds very forlorn.
I hope I haven’t given the impression that I don’t think Strauss has a humane side or that he can’t have complex feelings about the unwholesome aspects of what it means to be a kindred. On that, I wholly agree with you, and I think we have similar approach in exploring Strauss as a character. We just have different focus points on it, I suppose. And yeah, I see him as already having come to terms with most of the moral issues that vampires face.
As for bleakness and lighter moments, to me Max’s positive sides are very much on the forefront. The fact that he enslaved a gargoyle and how he sees them as inferior beings is disturbing and a contrasting point to all the good things about Strauss, and that’s why I don’t want to make excuses for him.
It’s also why I emphasized the atrocious nature of the gargoyle making process at the expense of Strauss’ potential doubts that he might have harbored later on. (I hope it wasn’t upsetting or anything. I just love digging into lore.) I find your ideas about those very interesting, and agree on some of your points.
Since I consider Max mainly from my fledgling’s POV, there’s mostly nothing but kind behavior from him. He’s polite and calm, he can be trusted to help a new and lost Tremere neonate find her footing, he teaches her and helps her cope with sage advice and guidance, and offers an absolutely safe haven where she can rest snug and secure. Yet, he is a Tremere elder, and can’t have made it this far just by being all nice. And honestly, to me it just suits his character that he has created a gargoyle. He’s very old and has an access to powerful sorceries. It helps to stress how he can afford to bide his time, while the younger Prince bumbles about.
The way I interpret Max relates heavily to my fledgling’s sense of morality, too. In the game, she stuck to the high humanity and moral options just about every time. She refused to let Pisha have the Haunted LA guy, and ate the masquerade violation by telling him to flee. She was horrified to meet Heather in Downtown and told her to go away, feeling disgusted about what she just witnessed. However, she is very insecure and is desperate for a safety net, and hence has it as her n:o 1 goal to secure herself a place within the Pyramid. So when it came down to having to kill the gargoyle, she didn’t think twice of it. It’s not a good moment for her moral development, for sure.
She has a massive blind spot when it comes to Strauss, in fact. In contrast to just about everyone else she’s met, Max is very pleasant, offering support and soothing words. I think he’s genuine about it too, objectively speaking. He wants the best for her, and his apprentices, and his clan, and probably the city itself. He’s also wise and considerate, and proceeds cautiously in his dealings. And he has the most attractive voice ever, too. There aren’t many apparent flaws, really, so the gargoyle fits well there to balance things. It tells us that Max is entrenched in this strange society that kindred in general have, and has his own, and to us alien, views about things.
During her apprenticeship, my fledgling will gradually become more desensitized and jaded, as she is taught Thaumaturgy and other Tremere secrets, adjusting to that culture. That would happen even without the Pyramid tutelage, of course, as it does to all kindred. But in this particular case, it’s tied to her and Strauss’ mentoring of her.
For me, it’s less “shipping” and more just a narrative emerging from the roleplay. I have mostly explored the slavery issue w/r/t ghouls, since the gargoyle is already basically gone by the time the fledgling gets to meet it. The way my fledgling ends up getting her first ghoul, under a different regent than Max, is particularly upsetting for her.
The devs in were certainly coming from ‘fun first, canon minutiae second’ angle, and that’s how it’s supposed to be. The lore is there to be utilized as one likes, and therefore I also see it perfectly legit for you or anyone else to interpret the gargoyle as something else than what the canon says they are. No reason to stick to something that doesn’t sit well with you, after all. :) Do you already have some idea about what kind of creature the gargoyle is in your narrative?
I see no plot holes in the gargoyle quest though. The reason why Strauss is mortified about the idea of Isaac (or anyone else) learning his secret about the gargoyle is exactly because they’re illegal. He having made it is there to illustrate that despite being a strong Camarilla supporter, he’s still a Tremere blood sorcerer who puts his occult occupations and his clan first. It works perfectly for his character IMO.
I agree though that it’s almost foolishly risky of Strauss to create a gargoyle. However, I don’t think that means that the gargoyle doesn’t fit or that the devs were clueless or bad at writing to include it. The Anarch Free States aren’t very happy about Camarilla presence, so Max would have needed the protection for his chantry. The gargoyle downright saved Max’s life on multiple occasions, so his gamble seems to have paid off. The Tremere are arrogant, as a theme, and engage in a slew of unethical experiments expecting to get away with it. And they have gotten away with a lot.
For the game design, there’s the big library building opposite the Venture Tower that has the fence around it with the gargoyle statues. This is very close to the chantry, and I imagine that works as visual world building to hint that the gargoyle might have blended in here, while hunting/watching out for enemies. Maybe it’s something that Max made a mental note when choosing where to base his chantry. (In fact, when I first walked past the statues, I thought that I won’t be surprised if one of them swoops down to grab me yet in some later game sequence. :p And that was before I knew anything about VTM gargoyles.)
Gargoyles have a variety of appearances, since they always come out different from the Creation Ritual. Like traditional gargoyle statues, more or less. The gorilla look of the vtmb gargoyle is a bit odd to me, but they’re generally not pretty. Maybe Max used a particularly ugly Nossie for this one. They also have wings for flying, which I don’t think the game gargoyle had. That I guess could be used to envision this gargoyle as some different kind of creature if you wanted. The wings could also just be small and under the armor, though. Max probably wouldn’t have wanted it flying except if absolutely necessary cuz masquerade.
Gargoyles have a discipline called Visceratika that allows them to harden their skin to stone. The gargoyle is either using this discipline (skill called Armor of Terra) or some similar skill powered by Strauss’ rituals, ready for a fight when it crashes down to meet the fledgling. In the concept art, the gargoyle looks much like the game version, but it’s not stony. Its armor, afaik, should not turn to stone with its flesh, but maybe they tested different versions and wanted to make clear to the player that this was a stone monster.
The biggest problem I see is that Strauss tells the fledgling the entire truth about the gargoyle so freely. True, there’s a speech check, and we need quests, so it just has to be chalked down to the fledgling being really persuasive. (It’s the power of “ , … ” and can’t be resisted.) And if you’re a Tremere, he tells about it without you even asking, so there’s the clan trust too.
I agree that Strauss surely had a positive attitude towards the gargoyle originally. I didn’t want to imply that he was extraordinarily cruel towards it while it yet served him. Max definitely is a person who wants to treat others fairly, including his ghouls and the gargoyle. Of course, “fairly” is very questionable concept when it comes to enslaved beings… I think Max did view it as a reliable guard, like you say, and wasn’t abusive in his language or commands with it.
You make a good point that the gargoyle’s sense of justice must have come somewhere. Max must also have taught it to hunt and to stay unseen, and so on. Its hatred for Strauss and the Tremere is so immense that sense of betrayal probably does figure into it, yeah. Especially with how viscerally it reacts to the concept of “talk,” which we know Max is good at.
I imagine he gave the gargoyle some decent lair in the chantry, too, not just some closet. Seeing them like guard dogs seems a common approach for Tremere back when gargoyles were still commonly used, but I like to think Strauss might have been kinder than that yet. However, that is still a low bar when talking about keeping a slave. It always remains the dynamic of a master’s attitude to their slave.
During the final nights before it escaped, Max probably became increasingly annoyed about its rebellious tendencies, and grew harsher with his language and disciplinary actions. In my headcanon, this coincides with an apprentice (the fledgling’s sire) also being increasingly unruly and difficult to reason with at this time. Max had raw nerves due to all this, as well as the Prince being garbage, which also explains why the gargoyle managed to escape.
I was imprecise when I wrote that Strauss didn’t “feel a thing” about the gargoyle facing death. I clarify: I think he felt no remorse about wanting it dead. He notably exhibited anger when he said that he had hoped that the gargoyle was already dead, raising a clenched fist. I think Strauss felt betrayed too, and that gels with your thoughts about him having been fond of it back when it was still under his thumb. I think his positive feelings for the gargoyle were all eroded at that point, though, and that he was past caring.
In my personal narrative, any potential mourning about having lost a once loyal servant is also overridden by relief of a problem solved and the exciting prospect of gaining a new apprentice. With the fledgling sent off to do the deed, I imagine Max already rummaging around to find a suitable welcome present for the neonate, picking the seriously great Daimonori, and preparing his ghouls to be ready to help her move in. (I headcanon that Max actually hasn’t yet had her possessions brought in, although it’s sort of fun idea that he was THAT confident about her accepting the Pyramid invitation.) He’s very happy to hear the gargoyle is dead, after all, and I doubt he is just putting on a brave face.
Compartmentalization as a coping mechanism for Strauss is a good theory. The way you put it sounds highly fitting for the Tremere. Maybe I idealize Strauss too much as being so very scholarly and smart that he’d refuse to lie to himself about extremely basic facts like sentience and sapience. I guess it’s because I tend to think of Strauss’ existence being strongly tied to the kindred culture and being accustomed to using sapient beings for his provenance. He’s been drinking blood from humans for centuries; his morality has to be skewed as hell by now. And I think he probably rates kine higher than gargoyles, considering that the Camarilla tends to value sticking to one’s humane side, at least on paper (and compared to the Sabbat).
Like I said, I do think he justifies the gargoyle creation and keeping it enslaved to him, e.g. by using hostile Sabbat members for ingredients. We think about the justification in similar lines, but I probably view him as more callous about the entire thing. And the way I see it, the gargoyle rebelling unfortunately didn’t cause Max to reconsider, but instead made him angry and determined to kill it.
While I do think the fledgling and Max definitely have a capacity to feel regret and try to do things better in the future, and that they act on it on occasion, I don’t see big redemption arcs in their future. Strauss is not the type to start a search for Golconda. He seems content in his life and I think he doesn’t harbor great conflicts about his existence, having had centuries to work out his initial fears. The major doubts I envision him having relate to the Pyramid and especially to it fracturing.
About ghouls, in lore the Tremere don’t usually keep many, because they can have all sorts of thaumaturgic servant creatures. (As an aside, sometimes the Tremere take ghouls that they figure are good potential embraces. So after faithful service for some decades, the ghoul can hope to “advance” and becomes an initiated apprentice of the Pyramid. So if you struggle with Strauss keeping ghouls, you could consider if it’d make it easier to swallow if Max was evaluating a potential childe for himself or an apprentice.)
I’ve headcanoned a homunculus for Strauss, and my own fledgling I see as a fan of sanguine assistants. There’s also a blood imp later on. I don’t think Max could have managed the chantry without any ghouls though. It’s just something the kindred eventually end up accepting if they want to thrive. Living among these kinds of creatures as well as ghouls, and maybe managing kine herds too, might have made Max feel like a gargoyle wouldn’t be such a big step, in a culture where these things, as well as the use of Dominate for mind control, are heavily normalized.
Still, the Camarilla has prohibited them for a good reason, so it wouldn’t just be another servant among many. Hence I still think it means Max had especial interest in forbidden rites, and to me that’s another sign about why he has prospered within the Pyramid where the main virtue is to keep on pushing the boundaries without getting caught.
I hope I haven’t rambled too much about my fledgling in conjunction with Max, btw. I like to stick to her viewpoint in my narration, so that colors how I explore my ideas on various characters. Although with Max I also have scenarios from before her time, too.
Edit: I’ll have to add yet that I don’t think that the gargoyle stuff is the only questionable thing about Strauss either. He is up to all sorts of elder fuckery for sure. Just in case it came across as me presenting him spotlessly innocent about everything else than the gargoyle.
I am totally enjoying this conversation and I wanna add a couple of things I haven’t seen acknowledged yet:
Firstly, Max mentioned that the gargoyle saved his life at some point. Makes me wonder - what from? What enemy was so powerful it almost killed a 700 year old Tremere elder? Did its existence have anything to do with Strauss’s decision to create the gargoyle?
Secondly, it’s been mentioned that Strauss may or may not feel remorse, but this is overshadowed by the process involved in creating a gargoyle and that someone who completed it couldn’t possibly have been affected by it. Is it at all possible that any such remorse might have been borne of undertaking that process, and underestimating his ability to handle it? That maybe, emotionally, it was an extremely difficult process for him to do but he felt he HAD to finish it, whether because of some external threat or because he wanted to prove to himself he could do it and because they were “just” Sabbat? Like, I don’t think the ideas that the process of creating a gargoyle is horrific, and that someone might have had trouble completing it but did so anyway, are mutually exclusive.
@robotslenderman I actually did touch on that in my previous reply.
Max says he made the gargoyle “many years ago” to protect “this chantry.” So if he were in town well before LaCroix was installed less than a year ago, he really would have needed beefy protection.
The old LA source book explains why there are no Cam elders in town: even if an elder could kill an entire gang of neonate anarchs by himself, there’s never just one gang and they’d be united in wanting to destroy the invader. There was a truce struck in 1998, but I doubt all anarchs (or kuei-jin for that matter) would’ve heeded it, since for decades the Anarch Free States were extremely un-welcoming to any Cammie elders.
I have my own idea about when Max arrived in LA though (much earlier), and at what point he creates the gargoyle, with a very good reason in his opinion. I ought to find the time to finish that post in my drafts.
I’d guess the gargoyle’s job would’ve been to clear enough space for Max to be able to finish casting whatever elder level thauma he’d be working, which works well if there’s a horde of enemies trying to have at him. Max has auspex so I don’t think it’d be easy to get a drop on him, but nonetheless the gargoyle could’ve also shadowed him from above and descended on any covert assassins. Thirdly, it could’ve guarded the chantry to spot any attempts to tamper with the protective wards or gain ingress (maybe skulking on the library’s gargoyle statue decorated fence sometimes). Max also wanted to spare his apprentices from risking themselves too badly in battles.
I’m sure that Max felt justified in making the gargoyle and thought he had excellent reasons. It worked out great for him too, giving him no reason to fret for several years. Max is likely satisfied with his reasoning even after the gargoyle rebelled, since I am sure he didn’t commit to this project lightly. You don’t create a gargoyle without good reasons, so he must have weighed his options carefully.
However, I don’t think a gargoyle is everabsolutely necessary, no matter what the enemy is. There’s always some other solution, if you have moral scruples. More ghouled bodyguards. Just spending money to hire mortal protectors, if you want the absolute minimum amount of blood slavery. The gargoyle isn’t THAT tough, compared to, say, Kanker or Vick, let alone the later bosses. I just can’t imagine any situation where you absolutely could not win a fight without having a gargoyle on your side. Max was not forced to create one out of utter lack of better options, I am sure.
Honestly though, like idreamtofmanderley wrote earlier, this level of background for the gargoyle is probably something that the devs didn’t consider as in-depth as this. To me the the anarch gang interpretation works well enough and feels lore compliant too, which I like. It could also be that there was some big monster that Max needed to fight for some reason, but since the gargoyle was explicitly for the chantry’s protection, I feel that’s unlikely. Still, anything can be envisioned. Maybe a monster whose only weakness is stone.
As for Max’s feelings during the Creation Ritual, sure it’s possible and maybe even likely that he might have found it unpleasant but necessary. I doubt he was downright gleeful about the ritual, at any rate. Yet I think that at this point of his life he was already hardened to high level thaumaturgy rituals, having been practicing the art for centuries.
It also depends whether it was his first gargoyle. I think he at least would’ve been a helper for someone else creating a gargoyle before, and therefore knowing how it is in practice. If it was his first time, maybe he would’ve found it harder than he thought, like you said. Extreme upset over it however feels unlikely to me. I think Max would’ve set out to do this with a calm mind and certainty that this is justified, amplified by the 2nd level blood bond to the 7 who are fine with this ritual and grislier ones yet.
I think Max has learned ironclad self-control (crucial for any Tremere) and self-reflection to estimate in advance what he can do and what is too risky. He is cautious. He’d read the instructions with great care to make sure he is up to this high level ritual, wanting to make sure he won’t botch it, thinking back on all the numerous thauma rituals and other Tremere business that he’s been involved in before.
Furthermore, if he was melting down over when making the gargoyle, I feel he would’ve acted differently when dealing with the fledgling during this quest. He already lets his guard down by showing his genuine surprise when the topic is brought up, so it can’t all just be him bottling it up. He also exhibits anger… And well, now I’m repeating myself from before. Like I wrote in my previous reply, his mind is unburdened enough to prepare bouncily for the fledgling to be invited over to the Pyramid (if Tremere) and he’s happy and jubilant to hear the gargoyle is dead. He also sounds very even toned and self-assured when he tells his terrible opinion on gargoyles not deserving freedom. I see no regret in him. If he felt bad when making the gargoyle, he’s gotten over it by now.
@youraveragemadcourier Thanks. :) Good point about Max’s age being another facet in his attitudes. If his last deep immersion in kine culture was back in 1450s or so, that has to affect how he views things. Not to say I don’t think that Max doesn’t keep up (and I know you don’t think so either). He loves to learn and is likely wise enough to change his opinion if he sees it as wrong.
But with the gargoyle, Max has evidence of the Gargoyle Revolt that happened already in 1400s. He was already embraced when the Revolt ended in 1497. He knows that the Tremere agreed to cease the practice, that the remaining gargoyles were freed from their bondage and even admitted into the Camarilla as equals.
He also knows that the now-fellow Camarilla member clans Gangrel and Nosferatu were furious about the atrocity. He must have interacted with many Nossies and Gangrel through the years, and even if the future-gargoyle that he picked was from Sabbat or was a caitiff, he still would know they are complex thinking people. Max knows that nowadays very few Tremere even know the Creation Ritual and that hardly anyone ever actually does it anymore. He knows there are hard penalties.
And yet, knowing all this, he goes and does it. Not lightly, no. But there are other options if one doesn’t want to commit a gruesome criminal offense with torture and mind wiping. Elders gonna elder.
I have to agree, I also like to have darkness in World of Darkness. Tremere lore is incredibly fun and rich, Max is excellently written and acted character based on it, and I enjoy all his content.
That of course isn’t to say that he can’t be interpreted in any way a player wants. It’s just a video game. I don’t want to argue against people’s personal interpretations or tell they’re wrong, so I hope it doesn’t come across like that! @idreamtofmanderleyagain I’ll say again, you have highly interesting and cool ideas about Strauss, and I love hearing about them. :)
