Interview from SpazioRock, May 2022

With the release of the new album ‘Impera’, Ghost can finally go back on tour in Europe. A few hours before last night’s date at the Forum di Assago, we met Tobias Forge, with whom we talked about the comeback, his conception of power, Bono and Putin, how even a lasagna can cyclically come back to life and how this is representative of an unhealthy conception of time in western societies.

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Hi Tobias, nice to see you again, welcome back to SpazioRock. How are you?

I’m very well, I’m very happy to be back here. This tour, especially the European tour, has a special meaning. For two years there was only talk about the state of the world, “it’s all over”, “all the states are closing their borders forever”, “all the businesses are failing”, “it’s a total catastrophe, everything is failing and destroying itself”. And then when we started the tour we said “everything is still in the same place!”. I’m not saying that the world doesn’t bear the wounds of these events, or that it’s fine, it’s just really invigorating to see the people out there, the people alive, Milan that still exists. For years we were told that no, it was all over, that tourism would never recover, that rock was dead, that we would never tour again… but here we are. We’re on tour. I’m really happy about that.

How is the tour going? The production of this show is incredible. What is it like to come back on tour after two years and perform in such a huge theatre? What is it like to play “Impera” live?

Going back on tour was strange at first, when we started in January, it’s been a while now. Then you get used to it quite easily, if you like being on stage, if you like touring, if you like performing, it’s a bit like riding a bike. You know what you have to do, the only thing that takes a little bit more time, but it’s because there’s a lot of us, there’s 9 of us on stage, but the crew that makes the show happen is 40 people, and the difficult thing is to find the harmony between everybody, which is not always easy. It’s this combination of people that makes the show perfect in every detail, which is why we do the same set every night. We encourage people to come and see the show, not just watch it online, because it’s something to see live. If you don’t want to come and you want to watch it online, that’s fine, but the show is getting better every day, it’s much better than at the beginning. Now we enjoy it all. Bringing the songs from “Impera” to the audience is really nice, we’re not doing as many songs as we’d like, even tonight we won’t play some of them, but we’ll do it sooner or later. It’s always a breath of fresh air to play new songs, sometimes it’s also a bit strange because you don’t really know how the record has been received yet. It takes a while. It’s like having a restaurant and putting a new dish on the menu, you don’t know what people will think until they’ve eaten it a few times. Then, there you’ll know how many times that dish has been ordered. It works the same way with songs. You play the songs that the audience likes. Then you can vary, you have to be good at finding that common ground where the audience is always receptive and involved. I know there are some very good songs on the new album like “Watcher In The Sky”, or “Respite On The Spital Fields”, or “Twenties”, it’s a great song, but we want to wait for the best time to do them.

I’d like to go into a bit more detail about “Impera”, your latest album. First of all, the last time we spoke, you said you wanted to raise Ghost’s status in the rock world to a new level. Do you think you’ve achieved that?

We had made some great strides at that time. Obviously the big difference between us and the other bands is that we’re touring now. That’s a big step. A lot of bands are at home waiting for the planets to align, waiting for everything to be normal. But we also had to rethink our reality. We’ve made a great record - that’s a good thing - we’re on tour - beautiful - but of course there are critical issues. This summer and autumn every band on the planet will be touring, so we have to figure things out. We’re on the road to becoming a great band, but it’s a steep road and that’s why I’m so happy to have a new album and be on tour: the only way to become a great band is to make records and play in front of people. The end. That’s the only way you can achieve that. We’re happily on our way to becoming an even bigger band, but it’s going to take a little longer, and maybe it’s harder than I thought it would be when I said those words four years ago, but it’s not a problem. I had a band before that didn’t have any following. That was a problem.

The record deals with themes of the rise and fall of great empires, and thus, the concept of power. What does 'being powerful’ mean to you?

A great example of “being powerful” is when there is one person who, just because he feels like it, causes the huge crisis we are experiencing now. Not the Covid crisis. But almost all the others are caused by this same person who most people now want dead. But that’s not possible. Because the people who are really close to him, who are the only ones who could do it, are either in jail, or they don’t even dare to think about killing him. I think this is one of the most classic versions of power. It is not new. Those kinds of tyrants have always been there. It’s just that we’re not so used to it nowadays. We’ve always thought of these great tyrants or Hitler figures as something that belongs to the past. This I think is something that people have really thought until now, here in the West, that we have reached a new plateau. We used to think that history was something of the past: now we have Instagram, Twitter, we have all these gadgets, all those old stories are now inconceivable, we don’t expect them anymore. But now we know that both epidemics and pandemics are also something of our time, and that we can witness events caused by a new Hitler. I don’t know if I’ve answered your question, but the power is when you have this sort of magnetic field that keeps making these figurines move around you. It’s powerful when it’s Bono doing it, here (at the Forum, ed), making everybody sing “Sunday Bloody Sunday”, but it’s really scary when it’s this 75-year-old madman doing it, who has just decided that he wants to destroy the world. But one day it will end, these days are numbered of course, and most of us will most likely not die before we witness this moment. One day he will no longer be in the world and we can move on.

At some point we manage to get rid of these characters, but do you think we’ll ever be able to get rid of the dynamic itself?

No. It’s something you have to understand, about humanity and how the world works. Everything is circular. In the Western world and in the Middle East we have this problem. Even if you are not a believer, you have a linear conception of the system. The great systems of the Christian, Jewish and Islamic faiths are based on a linear way of thinking. You are born, you die and then you go to heaven or hell. There is a beginning, an end, and then a new phase. The world, Mother Nature, is circular. Shinto, Hinduism, Buddhism, are all circular. They are based on the respect that if you ate lasagne one day, and you decided to throw the remains in your garden, it will become soil. And on that soil you can grow potatoes, carrots. Then you can make pasta with meat sauce and gnocchi. It’s not a lasagna, but almost. And then you can throw it back into the garden, and it will become something else. It will grow into something else. All other conceptions are circular. The linear system of thinking is rubbish. It has completely destroyed our understanding of time. We don’t understand time. We think that time ends, and this is a big problem for us, because we think that if we uproot this dictator, then there will not be another one. But there will always be another one, only in a new form. In the same way they thought that we would never see a Hitler again. No, only he will no longer be a little man with a moustache, but he will be someone else. Next time it will simply be someone else. The only thing we can do is try to keep the balance so that it doesn’t happen too often and too powerfully. But this guy has become so powerful because he took power a long time ago and built his system against the West, and against his own people. And it was just a great achievement for him to be able to have control of who was sitting in the White House. It was a great loss to the Western world while he enjoyed it. The person who enjoyed Trump’s victory the most was Vladimir Putin.

Do you think there is a margin within which the individual can free himself from all this? In a vision that concerns one’s own personal way of living, I mean, not macroscopically. Do you think the esoteric, the obscure, can play a role in this?

I think the poor little human being could benefit from accepting certain things and stop trying to change the things he can’t change, and just accept them. And trying to change the things you can change. It is important to understand the difference between these things. Because a lot of people in the world, especially in the Western world, with all the freedoms that we have, and all the possibilities that our phones tell us are around the corner, it’s a bad thing, because it gives people bad ideas. “Maybe I’m in the wrong place”, “Maybe I’m unhappy because I don’t have everything I want”. That is also not a good thing. I believe that a way to achieve happiness and happy people in turn will transmit positive life force and that is a really contagious positivity. I think acceptance is a great thing. I for one am not very good at it. All I ever wanted in my life was to run away and get away. Now, just because I’ve managed to get so many of the things I wanted, I’m getting better at embracing the present moment. But my brain is constantly working, thinking and dreaming about other places, always planning, always thinking about the future. But that’s because I’m a disturbed person. But I am working on learning to be more in the present. Everything I wanted I have achieved. What I’ve always wanted is to be a musician who doesn’t have to go and do a shitty job every day, the day my life literally changed was when my wife said “Why don’t you quit your job? Because I feel like this band thing is going well, it’s working, so why don’t you just quit?”. And I said, “Um, yeah. Why not.” And I quit my job. For the first few months I lived with this thought, “am I really doing this thing that I’ve wanted to do since high school?” You always think that it’s all going to come to you like a big fucking gift pack, with a nice cake and fireworks saying “You’re free now!”. And then you go into the next phase. There it is, the linear thinking: life sucks and then… whoop, you take a step forward and everything you leave behind you wipe out. It doesn’t work that way. You just find yourself in a new position. If someone had asked me at the time, “Are you happy with your life?”, I would have said yes, “Would you like more?”, “Yes”. But that’s perfectly fine. And you have to try to create those moments when you stop and see that you are happy, that you have your own position, that you are happy with where you are at that moment, you feel good about the work you do. Like dogs, so if you do the right amount of movement, you get fed, you know where you are, you know what the roles are. Those are the most important things. For dogs. And for humans. And when they don’t have those things, they go crazy. Like dogs. And that’s when they start biting. And that’s when you have to let them out. To understand the world, you have to re-embrace a circular conception made up of canine creatures. It’s very simple, people have very simple needs, and so do I.

Interview from Laut 5/2022. Some very interesting insights from Tobias here on future tours, songwriting and… Imagine Dragons.

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Tobias Forge is not really happy after taking a look at today’s advance sales figures. When I meet the Ghost boss in the backstage room of the Lanxess Arena in Cologne, the conversation first revolves around the supposed German overcautiousness when buying concert tickets. And indeed: in the evening, many seats remain empty. But when it comes to the stage show, Ghost give their all again tonight despite weak sales.

First of all, how is Papa Nihil? With the daily reanimations on stage, you’re putting him through quite a lot.

That’s probably true. But in some moments he’s fine. This coming back from the afterlife, reanimation and all that, that’s certainly hard - but that’s not my problem.

How does the transport look? Does he have private pallbearers or is he occasionally reanimated during the day to polish his saxophone?

No, no, we have people who take care of his saxophone, he stays nicely in the coffin. Anything else would be torture. Think of rigor mortis. We only resuscitate him if we need him.

Then give him my regards and of course congratulations on “Impera”. Tell me honestly: Does a band’s new album always has to be their best?

Ah, wow, hahaha! It should at least be your intention to make the best album you can. Nobody goes into the studio to make an okay album - even if the result might be just that in the end.

But that also flows into all the promo talk: even bands that haven’t been relevant for 30 years regularly tell you that this new record is really the best of their career. Of course, self-reflection is not always easy.

We haven’t got that far yet, so I’m a bit more pragmatic about it. When I look back, of course I think to myself, on this one we did this and that wrong, and on this one that was really great. Of course, when you have 15 albums, you can’t easily list the concrete qualities of each one on one hand.

I think Metallica did it well, I saw an interview once where they said, “‘Ride The Lightning’ is our best album. Full stop.” Pretty matter-of-factly, I mean, they could have easily said, “The Black Album is the best,” simply because it did their career the best.

When I start a new album, I look closely at what I didn’t like on the previous one. It’s always a reaction to the previous album. Now that’s not just to say, “Oh, the last album wasn’t heavy enough, so I’ll make this one heavier.” Practical things too. I want the record to sound smooth, I want the hi-hat to be mastered properly and I like it in the mix.

Talking about hindsight: Over the years, Ghost have played almost all the songs from all the studio albums live. But only four songs from “Impera” can be heard tonight. What about the rest, will they be played on later tours?

It will come later, definitely. There’s a pretty simple reason why the setlist is the way it is: band and crew are scattered all over the world. That’s different from five dudes living in one city and rehearsing every Monday. We had to pick up a bit where we left off with our US tour - even if it’s at the expense of other songs. “Watcher In The Sky”, for example, we’re really looking forward to that. “Twenties”, at least some people want to hear that one, haha! Maybe also “Respite On The Spitalfields”. A few of them we call “gag songs” because we have some special things planned for them - but we can’t do them yet.

Interesting, because I have the feeling that many bands already sort out obvious surplus material for the release tour, which is then never played live. Is there no song that you can’t listen to any more or that you think in retrospect is too weak or not successful? Or could every single song reappear in the setlist one day?

I would say about 95 per cent, yes. The rest are songs that just wouldn’t work well live.

For example? “Deus In Absentia”?

“Deus” is definitely an odd song, but that also depends on where you place it in the set. That start-stop thing is very special, but it could work again. One song that didn’t work at all live, although we really tried, is “Depth Of Satan’s Eyes”. I don’t know why, I always liked it. I think it’s the speed, maybe it’s just too slow.

It just doesn’t have that awesome swing like “Zombie Queen” from the same album.

Yeah, exactly! (laughs) So there are definitely some songs with asterisks behind them, but that doesn’t mean we’ll never play them again. We have to entertain quite a lot of people, so the stage show has to be fluid.

Is that also the reason why your closer “Monstrance Clock” got kicked out? Did you play it too often?

We played it a hell of a lot. But we’re also thinking about an alternative tour, where we can play the stuff we’re not playing at the moment. At the moment we end with “Square Hammer”, which is such a banger that it leaves no room for more. Then in an alternative setting we will play “Monstrance Clock” again - those are just two completely different endings.

What interests me honestly is the role of the external songwriters in Ghost. On “Impera” there are more songwriting credits than ever for Salem Al Fakir and Vincent Pontare, known among others as songwriters by and for Avicii. How does it all work: you have a song idea and they put the finishing touches on the harmonies?

Most of the time I come up with one or two songs and say: “Look, I have song A here and I have song B here. Tell me, which one is the more interesting?” And then I just wait for the reactions. As soon as I present something to someone else, it’s the reactions that encourage me to keep working. Just like with you as an author, where an editor looks over it again and says, “Look, I know what you want to say here, but can’t you bring it to the point even better?”. Otherwise I’ll lose interest as a reader. Why don’t you try to emphasise this other part a bit more, it’s more exciting.“

It totally helps me to exchange ideas with very good songwriters in order to grow myself. It also helps me to realise where I can trust my intuition and where not. Sometimes I try to bring in new things to specifically differentiate myself from my intuition - but then I get to hear: "No, no, you should do it your way, it just works better here.”

But it’s not like your partners write specific melodies or parts of the songs?

Of course you pass the ball to each other, of course there is input, especially when it comes to arrangements. My vocal lines are usually very intuitive. But when you sit down and think about how to add a third voice, then you get to the point where music becomes almost mathematical. It mustn’t sound funny or sad, even if it might be harmonically correct. A lot of stuff like that.

Without influencing the sound too much?

As a pop musician, when you work with outside songwriters, they usually take more of a producer role. They build the sound. It was never like that with Ghost. In the demo phase, I play all the guitars, bass, keyboards and sing. But Salem [Al Fakir] in particular is an incredibly talented keyboard player who I can always rely on when I need a good piano part. But the instrumentation is always the same: two guitars, bass, drums, piano, organ, maybe Mellotron.

In my opinion, there are many negative examples from rock when it comes to the later involvement of external songwriters - Ghost is an absolute positive example for me, especially as far as the catchy tune factor is concerned.

What would be a negative example?

The last Linkin Park album (“One More Light”). They did a very good job of unfolding and trying things out for six albums and then just got off track with external people. I don’t mean that in a “they have to be heavy and have fat guitars” way, because they had also made interesting electronic pop music before. But the result was just not homogeneous.

I don’t have the album in my head right now, but I think that’s the typical mistake. I never ask anyone to write me a song. That just doesn’t work. But I think other people think, “Oh, I’ll just get Greg Kurstin [Sia, Adele, Twenty One Pilots] to do it, he’ll give us a sound”.

And you manage to make sure that the end result is still Ghost through and through, though?

Yes, I hope so. I’ll give you an example: there are bands that become overnight sensations. Let’s take Imagine Dragons. Labels, media - suddenly the whole business wakes up. You ask yourself: What did they do right? And then over the years these conversations come up: “You, maybe you should have producer XYZ mix your album.” - “Um, why?” - “He did Imagine Dragons, too.” Yeah, wow, he mixed Imagine Dragons. Nothing else. I don’t mean to speak ill of them at all, don’t get me wrong. But the basis of your recipe is in the ingredients. If you come up with rotten potatoes, you can’t save them by the way you prepare them. No mixer can save your song.

One reason why Imagine Dragons work so well is this. (Tobias stomps and claps the “We Will Rock You” rhythm.) Queen, if you will, but also … [He sings “Halo” by Beyoncé and “Apologize” by OneRepublic.] Both were written by the same guy [Ryan Tedder]. His thing was always that drum foundation. And it’s the same with “Radioactive, Radioactive” [sings]. That’s the whole thing.

If you want to sound like Imagine Dragons, you have to write your songs that way. You don’t need someone to put a tambourine in at one point, you have to write it directly like that. So when people like Greg Kurstin or Ryan Tedder come up and show that they can write for Sia on the one hand, but also work with the Foo Fighters, then you have to pay attention to what exactly you want from them. Because if you’re not careful, they’ll write you songs that sound exactly like that.

But to give a positive example, too: Aerosmith. They wrote first-class songs in the seventies and had another great career later on with songs written by others. And that worked really well. It’s never black and white. I think we are also in a grey area, somewhere in the middle. Write your songs with others, sure, but be in the middle of it. Don’t go and say, “Write me a Ghost song.”

Tobias Forge’s t-shirts, part 2

» Part 1

Dead Can Dance: featuring cover of Dead Can Dance’s debut self-titled album released in 1984. You may be familiar with the band already as for many years Ghost used their song “Host of Seraphim” as an outro to the rituals - it was played directly after Monstrance Clock.

Dead Moon: classic logo tee; Dead Moon was an American punk band fronted by a husband and wife, Fred and Toody. And I feel inclined to mention the band was originally called Rats.

Death: featuring the logo of the band Death. Death’s first album Scream Bloody Goore is considered by many to be the first death metal record, alongside Possessed’s Seven Churches. Both equally great.

Diamond Head: featuring logo of the English heavy metal band Diamond Head. They’re often cited as an influence by bands of such calibre as Metallica or Megadeth, but despite having inspired some of the biggest names out there, they themselves sadly never really achieved much commercial success.

The Damned - Neat Neat Neat: featuring cover of the English punk band The Damned’s single called Neat Neat Neat, which has one of the coolest basslines ever. The Damned were also a major influence on the goth subculture - if you google Dave Vanian it will be very obvious why.

Dismember: I’m not sure what the origin of this shirt is other than it is a newer print, but it looks a bit like the cover of Hate Campaign so perhaps that was the inspiration - I’m linking to that one just in case.

Dismember - Reborn in Blasphemy:featuring art form the band’s third demo. The shirt was originally black, it seems to have washed off a little… well, a lot.

“Eat the rich” – the slogan has a long history of course, but this exact design was particularly popular in the East Coast punk scene in the 70s, seen worn by Patti Smith and Dee Dee Ramone among others. Seeing that punk has been a huge influence on Tobias, it’s possible that’s where he got the inspiration from.  

Emperor:featuring the cover (a drawing by Gustave Doré called Death on a Pale Horse) of their debut self-titled EP released in 1993. If I may allow a little personal digression,it’s the record that got me into black metal some very many years agoand life hasn’t been the same since. End of digression. 

Exodus:from the 1985 Bonded By Blood tour supporting an album under the same title, one of the best and most influential thrash albums of all time.

Faith No More:featuring the classic FNM logo with the eight pointed star meant to symbolise chaos, order through disorder, etc etc.

Frank Zappa - Hot Rats:featuring cover of Zappa’s second solo album called Hot Rats. Did you know that Frank Zappa released 62 albums in his lifetime? Pretty crazy. The lady on the photograph is Christine Frka, a famous groupie who also happened to be a babysitter to Zappa’s kids.

Grotesque:this is an early 90s longsleeve featuring art from the album Incantation. On the back there are lyrics to Submit to Death on the sleeves there’s a phrase “I am hell itself”, a line from the song Spawn of Azathoth

Iron Maiden - Somewhere in Time: I hope I don’t have to introduce Iron Maiden and if I do then goddamnit the world has failed you. This is a 1986 shirt featuring art from the album titled Somewhere in Time.

Iron Maiden - Powerslave:featuring art from the Powerslave album, but the shirt actually comes from the World Slavery Tour 1985 and there are EU tour dates printed at the back.

Iron Maiden - World Slavery Tour:another World Slavery Tour shirt. The tour was absolutely insane and lasted 331 days during which the band performed 189 gigs. Crazy.

Incubus - God Died On His Knees: Not to be confused with a popular rock band under the same name. This Incubus was an American death metal band that only released one really cool demo in 1987 and disappeared into oblivion, this shirt features the cover art of this demo exactly.

Joy Division - Love Will Tear Us Apart: featuring art from probably the most popular single from Joy Division, poignantly released a month after the lead singer’s suicide. The phrase “Love will tear us apart” is even inscribed on his memorial stone.

Joy Division - An Ideal for Living: featuring artwork form Joy Division’s debut EP. The artwork caused a bit of controversy when the EP was initially released as it shows a Hitler Youth member, which coupled with the origins of the name of the band fuelled some rumours that the band were Nazi sympathizers - which of course was not true.

Judas Priest: shirt from the band’s 1986 Fuel For Life Tour which they went on to support their album Turbo. The stage design for the tour was really cool – there were several platforms resembling sort of futuristic/robotic parts, and at the back of the stage there was an actual giant robot prop that would lift the band members during performances!

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Thank you for reading! We’re about 1/3 through. Next part coming soon.

Heavy Metal Gottesdienst | ttt – titel, thesen, temperamente

Interview/short documentary on Ghost with Tobias from German TV. It’s dubbed but you can sort of make out what he’s saying and there are some lovely shots of Tobias wandering around a church there :) And a short clip from the upcoming video to Twenties.

Tobias will be a guest on Planet Rock this Sunday at 7 PM London time playing and talking about his favourite tunes as well as some goodies from The Clergy’s back catalogue. Don’t forget to tune in!

Hint: the radio won’t work on mobile if you’re outside of the UK so use the desktop version, when it asks you for verification just put in a random UK postcode, e.g. SW1W 0NY.

Some sketches of Papa I too because he doesn’t all the love he deserves

I have so many Ghost wips, but nothing I do for these 50+ year old fictional satanic cult leaders seems good enough

M’leggy

thinking about copia’s wings

standing here by the abyss

my entry for a DTIYS challenge

birthday doodle

SWISS GHOUL SWISS GHOUL SWISS GHOUL

ryuzatodraws:

A dtiys of @feuvyper!

obsessed with the effect of that spine coiling upwards

commission for @spaceherm, thank you!!

washbuccet:

i already posted this before but uhm. When / if Tobias kills off Popia i wILL buy a plane ticket to Sweden to yell at Tobias but in reality i will just have a full on mental breakdown.

Lemme sneak into your luggage

washbuccet:

“You’re dead, “I’m starving.”

the food

will go right

through you”

washbuccet:

Yes i agree Terzo is a bisexual disaster for sure, bUT HOW IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT COPIA’S FRUITYNESS? LIKE HELLO, THATS MY LITTLE GAY MAN RIGHT THERE.

C’MON GUYS.

Excuse me, he is MY gay little man