Men as victims - what makes the reactions to the Loki show so telling
Recently, I noticed something concerning on Twitter. There are several categories of people who liked and support the Loki show (2021), varying from casual fans who knew nothing about Loki before, over fans of the general MCU who perceived Loki mainly as a villain in The Avengers (2012), to rabid show fans who generally call everyone a misogynist who dares to admit they didn’t enjoy the show. Now, while I normally find some kind of common ground with people who are part of the first two groups, the last one belongs to a special kind of people. I noticed their habit to turn to verbal abuse quite fast (like so many others), but now there is something more they have in common: most of them believe and supportAmber Heard.
There are people on Twitter who love the show (by loving Sylvie as a proxy) to a degree it becomes meaningless to them if they thus support torture, abuse, and other crimes that are framed as morally acceptable. And they treat the Heart vs Depp trial just the same, attacking both Depp and people who believe him. They do so by utilizing ad hominem attacks, like calling people misogynists, social rights warriors, or men’s rights warriors, abusers, and toxic. They are trying to refute rather by character defamation instead of arguments. A frequently used move is to switch the abuser/victim dynamic and call everyone speaking up for Loki or Depp a victim blamer. To support their claims they apply other manipulative tactics, such as twisting facts.
Here is one example: after the show aired many fans of Loki (the character, not the show) pointed out that the relationship resembled autogynephilia, a harmful hypothesis that claimed trans women would want to adapt their gender because they were attracted by the idea of themselves, but as women. The pro-series fans claim to point out this would be actually transphobic (reversing the accusation), citing an article written by Julia Serrano (a famous trans-women who works in science). But if you check what she actually said about the matter, the article does not support the claim. She argued a dislike of the relationship could be caused by subconscious transphobia because people might perceive Sylvie as trans since she is the only female Loki variant. When genderfluid fans pointed out to her on Twitter that they did not feel comfortable with the Loki show, Serrano herself cited a tweet where she points out the flaws of the genderfluid representation herself. In conclusion, 1) fantasies about one’s own body but of another gender are normal, not limited to trans-people and not to be looked down upon! 2) presenting the relationship in the show in a way it will inspire discrimination against non-binary people because it reminds us of the harmful claims some “scientists” have made in the past is not a good representation. 3) pointing out this fact is in support of GF fans, and certainly not transphobic.
At the same time, men face much greater problems being believed when they get abused by women than the other way ‘round. Still, those people close their eyes from the abuse and support the abusers and in case of the Loki series, the framing of torture and abuse as being just. (While I am not a fan of Sylvie, since Loki was mainly disparaged to make her look superior, she is not mainly responsible for his abuse. That would be Mobius doing the death threats and the gaslighting, and ordering the groin kicking.)
Now why is this important? I think there is a social current happening we should be aware of. Women who hate men just because of their gender, who fight for increased discrimination under the guise of feminism and even pretending to act to protect trans-people. This is just as bad as patriarchy.
So, if you ever happened to be in a situation you were discriminated against and wanted the support of someone who would be believed where you wouldn’t you should fight this social current. I recommend doing so by asking if they liked the show. If they do, explain the torture, the transphobic representation, and the disparaging, and ask again. If they still stand behind it, that’s a bad sign.
On a side note: 1) those people are giving both feminism and LGBTQIA+ supporters a bad name, and I am getting annoyed by that. 2) I agree that the public defamation of Heard is not ok, and needs to stop. For one thing we should be over lynching in 2022, and secondly, it only contributes to the hardening of the fronts. Instead, we need to think about how we see people who have been convicted and that it is still a crime to abuse them.
Thank you. This essay means a lot to me. As a genderfluid person myself, I’ve actually faced a lot of horrific hate including death threats from Sylkis, including CIS Sylkis telling me that not liking Sylki is actually transphobic
These people claim to be defending that show and ship in our names, in the name of protecting our misrepresentation, while turning right around and attacking anyone, even OTHER WOMEN and trans and genderfluid people who dislike Sylki, Sylvie and the show.
I agree with a lot of this, except for one weird article written. I did take the time to read most of the links, I say most because that person’s essay on Tumblr in favor of LOKI and Sylki was longer than I was willing to sit through.
Butthis is the article linked, talking about how being against Sylki is likely rooted in unconscious transphobia. And honestly, she later clarifies (elsewhere, not in the article) that people can dislike it for other reasons, and that it was largely aimed at cis-het people. However, when I read it, it gave no indication for that leeway. Which makes it super easy for LOKI pro-series to use her words to support their stance.
Even though Loki is a fictional and magical god-like character, we puny humans tend to project a “male essence” onto him. Because of this, many viewers are likely to interpret Sylvie as “a male who has taken the form of a female,” when in actuality the character has no fixed form or essence. Thus, the freak outs over a Loki and Sylvie romance are structurally similar to “trans reveal” freak outs — they are rooted in societal transphobia (and homophobia).
So if you’re someone who is disturbed by this plot-line, I’d encourage you to ask yourself whether it’s because of gender essentialism and “magical essences,” and to consider how this unconscious tendency complicates the lives of actual trans people.
I do not doubt she’s faced those who probably have that mindset, that the cishet in question looked at the pairing in disgust for that reason, but this leaves no room for those who find the pairing disgusting for very different reasons. Reasons she actually brings up earlier in the article, and then promptly dismisses them.
I’ve observed numerous people attempt to explain why they find this romance so unsettling, and they don’t seem quite able to place the reason why. They will say things like “It’s weird to fall in love with yourself,” even though that’s not very convincing, because they are obviously quite different characters. I’ve heard others deride the romance as “incest,” even though Loki and Sylvie are not actually siblings, nor did they grow up together.
We were told before the series released that Loki being genderfluid and bisexual in nature would show up in the series. This was something they “announced” and so fans expected. Therefore, Loki and Sylvie does present the problematic theme of autogynephylia against the trans community, even though she says it’s not very convincing (and they are the same character, that’s why “variant” is used, hello??) It also does present the problematic incest theme, given that Loki and Sylvie share the same parentage, so they’re sorta like siblings separated at birth, if that separation was timelines. But she says they’re not actually siblings nor did they grow up together. Uhm, pretty sure my half brother is still my sibling despite not growing up together, so that’s a non factor.
These are two very prominent issues and factors we have talked about against the series—among many others—that she just brushes off within the article. And this leads to pro-series celebrating that they have a transwoman on their side to support the pairing, even though I’m still confused on whether or not she does. Sylvie having possible “male essence,” to me, is a none issue because Loki is bisexual, and they’re both supposed to be genderfluid, anyhow. Which leads into part of why we are so upset, that the representation we were told we were to be given was barely there, or misrepresented. And then they backpedaled when we called them out on it. Which kinda feels like what she did, backpedaled on her article when she says people can dislike it for other reasons.
I think her essay is still something that should be said, because I think she does have a point. But I also think the way she went about it can be weaponized against us queers who are disgusted by the pairing for reasons she dismissed, and that it does casually dismiss the arguments those of us have that are against the show and pairing but are not transphobic (or homophobic).
This though. When I originally read the link much earlier, she was too all over the place and seemed to be against the show for the most part and some bits did very much make sense in the anti transphobia sense. I can also see why she’d think Sylvie seems trans even though the show gave no such indication, SDM and Kate Herron back pedalled on that as well, and she is the cis-est white female, Terfiest character I’ve come across to date, but it does look like a lot of people hc her as trans, which is what I assumed the article author may have done, hence their view point that hatred for Sylvie may be rooted in unconscious transphobia. Although… Talking from experience, most of the transphobia I’ve experienced are from people who LIKE the show, LIKE the pairing and are transphobic against LOKI and NOT Sylvie. Hell… Many of the people who have been fluidphobic are actually people who keep claiming that Loki is Sylvie’s “dead name”, that is… They see her as trans. I honestly think this person is likely not aware of it… And they’re also on twitter, so their dismissal of those points so important to us, may be an attempt to avoid dogpiling, which while understandable, also doesn’t really help the queer community, or genderfluid people in this case because well… It does at some points seem to be in favour of Sylkis.
And I also don’t really know how to feel about a trans woman explaining genderfluid rep, which while appreciated… Isn’t from the stand point of someone who’s genderfluid, and from someone who’s very much still a trans woman with her own experiences to go by. Similar… But not really the same though? In this whole mess it actually feels a lot like us genderfluid people have been spoken over, silenced and bullied a heck tonne and genuinely not listened to about our side of things… So seeing a non genderfluid trans woman taking the “neutral” stance does kind of make me feel uncomfortable. But then again, they did write an article and put it up in that hate gathering hell space and they spoke for our rep when we are largely ignored, so I do kind of appreciate and respect it. Although it’s… Not really as helpful as we would have liked, I should think. ♀️
Me: Is it possible that Jesus of Nazareth was assigned female at birth, but was actually a genderfluid person who fought in the Roman Imperial armies in the wars against Parthia when they were young? Was Mary Magdalene actually a trans woman? Did Judas betray Jesus because he could not accept the idea of a non-binary Messiah?
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