@fymagnificentwomcn Sorry for this extremely out-of-the-blue response here, but I’ve had some very stupid arguments with people in the YouTube comments recently. So I feel like now I have something to add here.
Because I have seen people either project the her crueller and more problematic actions onto other characters (mostly Nurbanu and Mahidevran) or reduce her personality solely to her worst actions. (Not to mention the take that she’s ‘colder’ which…no. Vahide’s acting is more subtle than Meryem’s and also more on the melancholy side. Not ‘cold’. Hürrem is not and has never been a ‘cold’ character).
And I think this instinct to either whitewash and project or to completely demonise her is at its most apparent with season 4 discourse in my experience. Although it can also be applied to discourse around Hürrem more generally. And also it speaks to what is the elephant in the room when it comes to Hürrem as a character. Which is the baggage of the ‘evil manipulator who brought down the empire through her schemes’ trope that crops up in the pop culture receptions of historical figures (cf. Livia in I Claudius, who just as an aside is an iconic villain). And while the show plays into this to an extent, she also deconstructs and subverts it. What she is is an antihero who subverts this villainous archetype while also being female and I think that’s something a lot of people struggle with (Even though personally I think the show is much better off subverting this type than playing it straight. But I also just have problems with uncritically accepting that archetype generally. I just think we need to let female characters be both problematic and sympathetic. People don’t seem to struggle with that when it comes to male characters.)
*applauds*
“Hürrem is a girlboss” is a shitty take and needs to die a fast enough death for it to please Caesar himself. She’s no more of a girlboss than, well, any other sultana in the series, with the possible exception of Safiye, who is admittedly a bit of a megalomaniac - but hey, that’s what makes her so great! Hürrem is just more successful than most, and that’s all there is to this argument.
@minetteskvareninova Preach! It’s very reductive. Hürrem is successful, ruthless, amoral, ambitious and vindictive. But there is a lot more to her as a character than that. And as problematic as she is, she still has her fair share of redeemable qualities. And what makes her such a rich character is how her motives and thought processes make sense from a psychological angle.
Hahaha no problem, I know it’s old post, but then I also wasn’t here for some time because I’ve been fighting Russian trolls on twitter mostly these days. I totally get when sometimes you just want to discuss some topic and old post comes handy, no worries .
Mhm kinda surprised at the topic because nobody says she is presented as girlboss, but a lot of people stan her precisely in this light.
And it’s also complicated because absolutely she is far more complex and viewed in critical light by narrative (not as a villain, anti-heroine is precisely the right term) than what we mean with standard “girlboss”, but as subversion, which does not remove she does have her girlboss aspects to her and she herself takes the concept of harem alpha immensely seriously, and truly from the start, when she says to fellow harem girls they will be her slaves (as opposed to how Nasya reacted and instead roasted Ahmed’s ass both to his face and openly in harem - as she should - and pointed out how sick the system was not only in relation to herself and what was happening and happened to her). Do a lot of of characters display such characteristics? Yes. But it is still Hürrem’s arc that displays than more than others, same with how internalised misogyny forms a big part of her arc. Comparison to nicer version of Cersei Lannister is most apt and it’s important to see what she illustrates and what shaped her behaviour, while not condoning it or calling it “girl power”. Which is precisely the complexity and deeming her as always justified or always victim of the system forced to do stuff to survive and thrive (bonus points for dehumanization by removing free will, like all shit she does stems from trauma and shitty system etc. Just like male characters should not be excused in everything they do because trauma is now commonly understood… yet some people cannot accept this for female ones and “coddle” them in this way instead of treating them as complex human beings indeed). For some, someone being sympathetic yet doing unjustifiable things at same time is too hard to grasp still, so they resort to such cheap simplified narratives and suddenly truly ridiculous justifications pop up.
And here it gets more difficult - because while the narrative itself does not pat her on the back and treats stuff like hanging Firuze, attacking Isabella in her bed, hanging Nadia, assaulting people physically etc. as awesome, many of her less critical fans and people who have problems with watching comprehension view it in this way. And then I need to listen to takes (also time to thank the awesome YT commenters they never disappoint in delivering worst takes around, and this is why I never read them ) in vein yes it’s fighting for her man, yes she’s allowed to do so because Suleiman loves her, so unlike Mahi she is justified because of this and being the important character, a real queen fights for her man not withdraws like pathetic Mahi (true examples). Or how to deal with “pathetic people”. Similarly, they rarely acknowledge also her luck or her trump card in the form of Suleiman’s favour (which does not remove her intelligence or strength, but does not mean others are pathetic losers). But then we also talk about people who say she is a justified heroine simply because she’s the main character, since their media reading is thus limited.
Have fun (?) reading those… context - I called Mahi queen on the Mahi channel and under Mahi video, sb repeated Mahi is not a queen because she killed Mehmed, I replied Hurrem also did terrible stuff, so does that mean she is also not a queen? (yes kisses to @mc-critical, she also had to endure this nonsense )
Them:
Yet we all know which quotes and scenes people put as their fave and so many are there solely because “iconic facial expression”, “iconic walk”, “iconic slap” etc. and Vahide is usually not there and she truly has some of the best Hürrem scenes and best writing. It even puzzles me as someone who does not like Hürrem, why they make their fave look bad often and less complex than she is? Why they themselves reduce her to one aspect of her personality? And the limited repertoire of scenes lmao.
Still, both writers and Meryem at times did provide fan service for this part of audience and did put too much unnecessary stuff with Hürrem’s “funny (?)” antics, do not get me start on the long ass Isabella arc. At least kill her already instead of that cringe fest. S2 ratings from that period were high. Much higher than MCK, where Kosem thankfully had minimal stuff of this and yet I hear she was dumb for not chasing Ahmed’s concubines ajsmshsms. Fan service and such giving audience what was confirmed as enjoyable is unfortunately always there in Turkish TV shows due to their tremendous length and being filmed only shortly before release of each episode.
MC was long af, so unfortunately they did rely (S2 I look at you) at such stuff too much at times. S4 is where they finally could relax and this is why it is the best season IMO. And I think Meryem also began to at times resort too much into it, knowing how much people enjoyed it (which again does not go to say she did only that).
Hürrem’s arc does expose the Darwinist system of harem and emerging as the ALPHA and closest to the man and as such inherent problems of it all So the issue of girlbossing had to appear in some way. S4 Hürrem obviously is already pretty safe in her position as female ALPHA in the palace, so the focus is also changed into more consequences of that fight and advancement. She begins to actually suffer shit biting her back and the “new star” appears. Which is also why Vahide Hürrem is less interesting for those fans who enjoyed her by self-inserting themselves into her and living their own “mean girl fantasy” through her (which again is not the approach the show advocates). No wonder the fans who only saw “slaying them all, YASS QUEEN” had problems with that.
And again to actually be a standard “girlboss” she would need to actually be one who needs no man and roasts Suleiman’s ass more instead of ass kissing him and repeating how she is nothing without him. Her living in close symbiosis with a powerful man is big part of her arc which does affect her actions a lot and why she is so fixated on removal of other women & people close to him (her becoming jealous of Ibrahim instantly) and sees his judgment as some metric of female (and her own) value. It’s obviously fucked up and should make us all scream therapy instead of loving every bit of her suicide pact (and hanging) with Firuze and going YASS QUEEN (bonus points: my feminist queen). How they did not shy away from showing her symbiosis with Suleiman and how it affected her in deffo not feminist way.. is very realistic and I applaud it.
Still, people saying she’s no longer “funny” in S4 and only now discovering she has cruel streak..???
And do not get me even on people complaining how such “powerful sultana” could turn “ugly”….Peak ageism and misogyny. Yes after losing her son and being held captive, she’s gonna not change at all. Very realistic.
And it does show people’s attitude to female characters - young, pretty, more cheerful and funny is “YASS SLAY QUEEN”, while the older is not so seen in this way.
I’ve even seen a meme with “biggest downgrade ever” and MeryemHürrem vs VahideHürrem being put there… I showed them what downgrade truly is by putting kid Mu rat from MCKS1 with the adult piece of shit from S2. Geez.
- Joanna
Fighting Russian trolls? On Twitter? My condolences. That sounds like such fun (not).
Honestly, I’ve seen both pro and anti Hürrem takes that lean on the girlboss idea.
The comparison to Cersei is very telling. Because one of the characters who inspired her was Siân Phillips’ portrayal of Livia in I Claudius. And I think it validates my theory about what a seminal character she was in terms of the evolution of a certain type of powerful female character. Honestly, she was a brilliant and iconic villain, which is why she has the legacy that she does (and I could go on about her, but I don’t need to hijack this for the purposes of yet another I Claudius rant). And Hürrem can definitely be viewed in terms of that legacy. Although Livia (and of course Cersei) are definitely the villains to Hürrem’s more sympathetic antihero. I do think there’s a difference between justifying her actions and contextualising them. I mean I don’t think she realistically could have changed the fratricide law but that doesn’t change the fact that murder is still murder. And obviously even within the choices she had, she still had agency and was responsible for her decisions. I’d agree there.
OK then…’Hoes’. Wow. I wish I could say I was surprised but unfortunately I’m not. Yet more slutshaming in the comments section. On top of that unfairness to Mahidevran and also just romanticising the ways in which Hürrem had to be self-effacing for Süleyman. In terms of Firuze, there is a lot to analyse because of just how differently Hürrem treats her before and after she finds out she’s the new favourite. And what exactly it is that upsets her. Because before she found out, she tried to find solidarity with Firuze through (from her perspective) the shared experience of the trauma of enslavement. So when she finds out the truth, she’s as upset about the someone she liked and trusted as much as anything else. And both of those reactions stem from her trauma, revealing both empathetic and toxic sides to her personality as well. On the one hand she’s willing to step on other women if it suits her and to justify doing so (and yes, the internalised misogyny). On the other hand, she is also capable of finding solidarity with the experiences of other women (cf. her conversation with Kevser Hatun in episode 93, and yes she relates through the lense of her own trauma, but it still shows that she is capable of empathising with others (although she does very much struggle in this department when it comes to the potential negative consequences that her actions may have on others) and she does want some sort of a genuine friendship, and it serves as a significant motive for her charity work). At the point at which Firuze arrives, Hürrem is still trying to reach out to people and have some sort of an emotional/friendship connection. She hasn’t quite found her emotional support system yet. And with her deteriorating relationships with both Hatice and Süleyman, she is very isolated. And with the suicide pact, I thought it showed just how desperate she had become at that point. And you’re right about her needing therapy. There’s a whole conversation to be had about how the psychological wellbeing and mental health of a lot of the characters (most notably being Hatice, Hürrem and Mahidevran) was failed by the system.The scene that left the impression on me though was the one where she actually almost drank the poison. For one thing, the fact that her monologue went back to referring to her family. Which showed that as much as she had moved on, they were very much still with her. And it highlighted the abandonment issues that she had, that were a direct response to her trauma and arguably are a significant motivating factor behind a lot of her thought processes, defence mechanisms and actions. She felt alone, abandoned and like that was the beginning of the end (which was admittedly textbook catastrophising, but still…). And when Afife hugged her, I cried. That was one of the most genuine moments of compassion that she had received until that point. Which considering how alone she felt, was…a lot. And overall I love her friendship with Afife. In terms of YouTube comments, there’s some genuinely horrifying ones on that clip. People minimising or trivialising how hurt she was, mocking her or saying that she deserved it. Anyways I guess that’s my case made for why the Firuze arc actually has importance in terms of Hürrem’s character development.
In terms of comparing her with Kösem., I think a lot of that is to do with how old they are when they’re kidnapped and what the easiest ‘way out’ for them initially seems to be. Nasya is only thirteen or fourteen. And her reaction to point out what is unfair is natural. And she still has hope to return to her family. So this makes a lot of sense. Hürrem on the other hand watched her entire family get murdered and know she has nothing to go back to. So for her to move on and adapt, even in those more detrimental ways, makes a lot of sense. And she’s seventeen. So that adaption is easier than in Nasya’s case (and then there’s the whole severe abandonment issues thing). They’re in different situations so their traumas and their trauma responses are naturally different. And the same thing goes for Kösem not chasing Ahmet’s other women. It just wouldn’t make sense because her situation, experiences and therefore how she responds to those situations are different. So I definitely agree that it’s ridiculous to criticise Kösem for not doing what Hürrem did. It’s comparing apples and oranges.
If you ask me, her appeal changes over time. She could be quite funny. (I mean answering ‘forbidden! Forbidden!’ when she was asked what she’d learned from the day’s lessons was great for example). Season 2A was definitely the worst of the show and the Isabella arc was painful to watch though. Season 2B was interesting and I enjoyed seeing her being more audacious in what she did. Vahide absolutely has some of the best of Hürrem’s moments though. And her character development throughout that season is so interesting. She’s more mature, especially later in the season. The thing with ‘might makes right’ is that while she uses it when people challenge her, it’s not something she believes in in the same way that someone like Safiye does. I am currently in the process of writing some analysis about what I like about her through the seasons and I’m really looking forward to talking about how she develops throughout season 4 in particular. That said what draws people to her isn’t always going to be the same for all of her fans.
Oh boy. I get why that fan response is frustrating. Especially if she’s not a character who personally appeals to you. That type of stuff can be truly insufferable. Especially with the misogyny, toxicity and general obnoxiousness that the fandom is prone to.
Honestly if you ask me there is absolutely no comparison between Hürrem and Murad. She’s flawed and problematic but redeemable. He’s just a shitstain you can’t polish.
I’d say the useful idiots are even worse because they are not even aware of what they are doing,simply their own egocentrism and ignorance blinds them. Last year it was erdoganist trolls with the Armenia war, now this.. ugh. Again sorry for late reply, but my job requires writing for 8 h daily and then I am to tired to write more lol.
Ah no, nobody thankfully compared Hürrem to Mu rat.. (the only female character similar to him is T*urhan, who comes closest to a female tyrant).. what they have in common is their fiery temper, but that’s all. He’s just trash. It was somebody calling Vahide Hürrem the biggest downgrade in franchise as opposed to Meryem, and I pointed out Mu rat as cute kid in S1 as opposed to adult in S2 is biggest downgrade.
The person deleted their shitty meme, so I have only these screenshots:
BTW being”charming” and “not cold” etc. again does not mean you cannot be awful.
Nasya being 13 and having her parents alive (for the time being) of course makes a difference in her slow acceptance of Ahmed as opposed to Hürrem’s swift decision to seduce Suleiman and give him kids. It does. And it’s understandable she decides to be his consort right away as the only way to achieve something there. Yet her behaviour towards other slaves being in exact same situation as her is a different matter. She’s truly incredibly quick to play primadonna and announce to people who have been through same shit not long ago they would be her slaves, including her friend Gülnihal. This is not just trauma - it’s also her own personality, which makes her absorption into the system better and quicker than others. And it does include such toxicity of feeling better than others due to inherent characteristics - the number of times she states to Gülnihal she’s not like her (because she’s of the “stronger” type) is visible. The Darwinist agenda is already there in S1. Same with her attacking servants after she is not admitted to Suleiman, which was only Valide Sultan’s fault. They are also here taken by force. And they are simply doing their job.
Nasya is a child and while her reluctance to Ahmed and becoming his consort is based on her hope to return home, she also expresses a level of incredible maturity for a 13 yo. She’s 13 and she was uprooted from her home. She also gets put into jail (for Ahmed’s public critique), she does get unfairly attacked by fellow concubines, whom she makes a CHOICE to forgive. Incredible maturity for a kid. And not like her parents aren’t going to die soon anyway, and while she does change as result of her experiences and has to adjust herself too, she still displays a different attitude than Hürrem. Because they do have different personalities. And also people trying to claim Kosem “had it easier”. Sure. She simply faced different challenges. Imagine being up against such ruthless powerhouse like Safiye at the very beginning. Or even Halime. Her enemies were far more brutal. The fact that MCK moved quicker and Kosem quicker achieved her ranks in S1 with less screen time wise does not mean she had it easier. And yes being nice to people makes it easier for them to support you. It’s a reward not for simply being there, but for putting effort not to yield to your worst instincts.
BTW Safiye we see in MCK is at the end of her career after being a very powerful Valide Sultan. She was also a young girl once, just like Hürrem had conflict with her Valide and here Nurbanu was prejudiced by mere fact she was brought by Mihrimah (and Nurbanu was more ruthless than Hafsa again). And anyway of course Safiye is worse than Hürrem and Nurbanu, she truly reaches extremes..but it’s precisely to show how the toxicity evolved to this point. She’s worse, but the aspect connected with toxic behaviours and Darwinist ideology stays.
I admit I find it hard to sympathize with “backstabbed” Hürrem, who herself never had qualms to backstab her friends for her own gain, especially taking into account she and Firuze were never buds. Hürrem saw Firuze in herself once when she saw the girls on the road and what she did there was commendable and simply her just wanting to do good, yes. She does deserve kudos for this. But Firuze had much more of an actual friendship with Mihrimah and Cihangir. For Hürrem she was then simply an intelligent, skilled servant. One suitable to take care of kids and then to even give as concubine to Mehmed (Nurbanu style). And what about Nadia, one of the girls from the road? She did nothing again, yet Hürrem murdered her without the slightest pangs of conscience and even upon learning she was not the one she had been searching for, it’s not like she agonized over it. And Firuze had to stay quiet, just as Gülnihal had to - out of fear she would be murdered by the mere fact she was with Suly.. Firuze had a much closer relationship with Nadia and she never forgot what Hürrem did to that innocent girl.
Hürrem and Afife were later cute, but the problem with them was that they both bonded over Suly a*ss again. Afife when she saw how “loyal” Hürrem to him was and later their most common topic was again this piece of shit and his health and piece of mind.
Firuze had a lot of meaning for the show in general, not just Hürrem’s development. And anyway Hürrem’s toxic behaviours to other girls were there from beginning to end, including Nazenin (who truly did not stand a chance to displace her), and it only stopped bc Suly got too old and stopped taking ladies. When she was buds with Hatice, she did same shit.
Hürrem does have moments when she enjoys genuine companionship with people outside her closest fam (not like idk Tur*han who does not seem to even care to spend time with ppl other than plotting), but she is easy to drop it all the moment she sees a chance for herself. And even her views can switch depending on the narrative and what she is trying to sold - to victimise herself or show herself as “the strongest” and “victor”. When she is exiled for the first time, she first calls Gülnihal her “real friend” for sticking to her, but once Hatice appears, she calls her “her ONLY friend” in front of Gülnihal. Later again calls Gülnihal her best friend to Ibrahim to list all bad stuff that happened to her (and I love how she talks to him in a way that completely misses he was also taken away from his home), to again later stress “I am not you or Mahidevran, I am of sterner stuff!” to Gülnihal’s face. She does have a very self-centred mindset through which she filters stuff (by which I do not mean hypocrisy at the moment). Even in her conversation with Kevser Hatun (which in itself is a good scene for Hürrem ofc), there is that underlying that Kevser’s own sufferings (her family being dead and now she is forced to move somewhere else in her old age because Hürrem wants the vaqf in that particular place) is undermined and brushed aside.
When you start to think how many of Mustafa’s kids Hurrem directly & indirectly got killed… But she goes to ask forgiveness from Ibrahim before she dies?? Lmao, like, out of all the innocents she hurted/killed why is he the one that makes her feel more guilty? I know it’s all to clean her conscience to die in peace, but still, shouldn’t she feel more haunted by the ppl that never actually threatened her safety? When I tell you this woman has no reedeming qualities this is what I mean, “oh, let’s recognize the people I actually fought with & and did shit to me too so I can feel good that they don’t hate me anymore as I don’t, there’s no one else I wronged ofc, it was eveything to defend myself from their attacks”, like she’s supposed to be apologizing but all she really does is justify her own actions once more, everything she did was on mutual rivalries when the others hurted her too apparently, the peace of her conscience is so fake when you think of how it comes from, as always, feeling justified for absolutly everything she did. Like, no, maybe that’s the thing that gets me angrier about her, after all that shit her guilt is practically inexistent IF she’s not being held accountable as she was when Bayezid faced her for Mustafa’s death or now that she’s gonna die & needs to feel she’s not going to hell lmao, people acts like if this type of scenes are such a change for her character but when you analyze it it ends being more of the same, the pity she gets to show to rivals is just a way to convince herself she’s in all situations trapped against the odds, this is highlighted in the immediate change from “I’m not happy with Mustafa’s dying” to “He was too weak”, whatever helps you feel less like the oppressor, right, Hu?
Why does she act as if she didn’t say this to her literal toddler (friendly reminder musti was still a kid here), smiling about killing ppl, what a lovely mommy-daughter bond lmao
The funny thing about Ibrahim is that him being dead he could only listen again how he did one good thing in his life (sent her to Suleiman), how much he sucked, and how in the end she won, and she could be sure he would not respond back LMAO. Again also to make herself feel better by stressing the “I won” aspect.
And even with Mahi, while she was of course more empathetic and all, she immediately pulled the Mehmed card. Immediately.
