If FB were to portray Dumbledore as gay openly: what do you think is the best way they can handle this issue? Is it important that he gets a non-problematic love-interest? Would it be ok if they addressed discrimination in the muggle world and portrayed the wizarding world as better? What do you think are some of the things the LGBTI community would like to see from the first major gay character in a blockbuster and what do you fear they might do to his storyline other than ignore his sexuality?
If we accept the idea that Dumbledore’s sexuality is going to be represented in the text, and it isn’t just going to be alluded to, or acknowledged in passing without being developed, then the fears I have are:
His sexuality is treated as if it is of no consequence within society
His sexuality is inadvertently treated as a deviancy that needs to be curtailed
The first point is comprised of the following problems:
There’s no representation of any sexuality other than heterosexuality within any part of the existing franchise; this means there’s not simply a lack of evidence that homosexuality is accepted within the wizarding world, but an indication that it isn’t accepted
Homosexuality in the Muggle world was criminalised during this period
Upon rejecting Grindelwald’s ideology of Wizarding Supremacy and subjugating Muggles, Dumbledore positions himself as an advocate for a more integrated society. How does he resolve this with the knowledge that people who share his sexuality are prosecuted / imprisoned / outcast / ruined / blackmailed / can’t live ‘freely’ within the Muggle world?
I generally fear that this will not be dealt with at all. I think Dumbledore’s sexuality will be raised and treated as if it’s of no consequence. I think there will be no reaction from others, no exploration of the wider context, and in the very best case scenario, you might hear (or see in the papers) mention of a relationship between two men or two women just to establish he’s not alone.
So, my major fear is that Dumbledore’s homosexuality will occur in a vacuum.
The second point really links back to the HP series itself, and is a complaint I’ve made before. The point with this is that it’s not deliberate – but that you can inadvertently tell a story that you hadn’t intended.
For instance, it’s possible to read the Dumbledore / Grindelwald story as: a charismatic, charming and attractive man dragged Dumbledore down a dark path in his youth, and Dumbledore was only able to become ‘good’ again once he renounced the man and his beliefs. The man was then a threat and a dark shadow over the whole wizarding world until Dumbledore garnered the courage to face up to him, defeat him, and imprison him. The man stayed locked away forever, whilst Dumbledore lived a single, seemingly celibate life.
I’m not saying that the author intended to write a gay danger story - but, as it stands, there is a horrible truth that this is the closest thing we have as a representation of a non-heterosexual relationship (author intentions and what can be read into the text are not always the same thing). We have lots of heterosexual portrayals of relationships, both healthy and unhealthy – but nothing to compare this relationship to, and when something is the only portrayal, it’s damaging if it’s negative.
And there’s some awkward messaging that lurks beneath the surface. For instance, Dumbledore is presented as an influential, powerful and successful wizard who isn’t prevented from reaching his potential due to his sexuality – but he lives in a world where heterosexuality doesn’t just dominate, but is the only portrayed sexuality. Dumbledore might be homosexual, but he doesn’t utter a word about his sexuality, nobody appears to know about it, he doesn’t date, he isn’t married, he doesn’t have any relationships.
Therefore, Dumbledore is a portrayal of a non-threatening homosexual – a homosexual who is so quiet about his sexuality, it doesn’t exist. This accidentally reinforces the idea that queer people can be very successful as long as they don’t indulge, or sully themselves with a relationship, or go around pushing it in everyone’s face.
And that’s my second point – if Dumbledore and Grindelwald is dealt with as being a story of two ex-lovers (or an infatuation from Dumbledore to Grindelwald), and Dumbledore doesn’t have a subsequent shot at a healthy relationship, then are we risking seeing a story that finally brings homosexuality to the forefront of the series…and it’s portrayed as something dangerous, disruptive, threatening, and violent - which needs to be curtailed and contained?
Going back to the earlier point about Dumbledore’s sexuality being in a vacuum, is this sort of portrayal especially dangerous if there’s no point of comparison to other homosexual relationships, and whilst this tale is told, we also see positive heterosexual relationships portrayed within the text?
@deathdaydungeon Since Romeo and Juliet ends in blood and the suicide of teenagers, i guess Shakespeare wrote heterophobic stories. :/
Let’s be serious. You know what else doesn’t exist in a vacuum? Harry Potter. The “wizarding world” exists alongside plenty of fictional worlds and stories, many of which include gay romance. Lots of those have fluffy, happy endings. That’s great! And some of us don’t care for it. Or at least not all the time. No offense, but this entire site is raving 99% of the time about enemies to lovers and lovers to enemies. But when it’s gay, suddenly, it’s not okay? There needs to be a counterbalancing act, to be square? You’ve got to count them?
Well sometimes you can’t. Because guess what, there’s a reason why homosexual relationships show up less often than heterosexual ones: gay people make up roughly around 5% of the population, maybe less. We don’t know precisely because they tend to hide when the persecutions levels are high, which has been more often than not the rule rather than the exception. Some of us care about that fact being respected and represented justly, a lot more than we care about any potential homophobe’s opinion actually.
Fuck, but we just can’t win ever with some of you people, can we? Do you honestly think, in the year 2021, a person who is willingly sitting down to watch a Harry Potter movie is going to go, “well, this gay relationship had a bad end, that probably means it’s because gay = bad!” And even then, so what? You’re going to control the stupidity levels of everyone on Earth? If so, you’ve got some work waiting for you.
‘you people’ ?
Your second paragraph somewhat misses the point. I don’t requirequeer representation from HP; as you say, I can get that from other media. Still, Dumbledore was revealed to be queer in interview, so it’s not unreasonable that we discuss the positives and negatives of his presentation and whether we regard his character as sufficient representation.
I am rather reminded of the furore over Tara in Buffy being killed off. Joss Whedon was irritated at the idea he couldn’t kill off one of his characters, whilst fandom was irritated at the idea that it would be a lesbian character who died because of it being such a common trope.
There’s a really tricky position between ‘was Willow’s story correct for the character’ and the underlying - unintended - message of gay danger / heterosexuality, and a really tricky position between ‘this was the story I was telling’ versus ‘society has told x stories in the past and now it seems the responsibility falls with me to tell y story instead’.
Dumbledore exists in an environment which does not appear queer friendly, because queer people are entirely absent. Even at this stage, all these years on, there’s very little queer content in the franchise - and that absence, combined with the fact that one of the two queer people is one of the major villains (and we know how the story ends), then is that satisfying as a queer viewer/reader?
As it currently stands, for me, it isn’t. For you, it might be. I am absolutely prepared to judge the story as it is revealed, and I accept that my mind might be changed. We’re all entitled to our opinion.
@deathdaydungeon Forgive me for being curt, but i have had quite enough of people in the hp meta tag crying homophobia because a series of books aimed at children, published between 1997 and 2007, didn’t have Dumbledore parading in a rainbow speedo, or because Remus Lupin and Sirius Black didn’t end up opening a coffee shop in Soho. You’re catching residual flack, i’m afraid, but i guess like this story we’re criticising here our opinions also don’t exist in a vacuum.
Dumbledore was revealed to be queer in interview
First of all, that is not quite true. Dumbledore was clarified to be gay (specifically) and having been in love with Grindelwald during a small gathering of fans. I insist on this because, again, the common practice these days is to make it sound like JKR one day took a mike, organised a whole media conference, cleared a throat and said “ACTUALLY, DUMBLEDORE WAS A GAY MAN, NOW GIVE ME THE WOKE POINTS.” This was in 2007 and there were no woke points to be made by saying a beloved, eldery male character, who (you seem smart enough to realise) essentially incarnates God in the novels, was gay and could never fully get over his first love.
Joss Whedon was irritated at the idea he couldn’t kill off one of his characters, whilst fandom was irritated at the idea that it would be a lesbian character who died because of it being such a common trope.
Well, there are several things i could say about that. One, and i’m probably not gonna be giving a very popular opinion here… i kinda agree with Whedon, as much as it pains me to say. It’s counter-intuitive to all my instincts as a reader/viewer to go and tell a writer how they aim to write their story. If i don’t like something, i just stop consuming it. I realise this is very much personal and not universal, but hey, i’m not gonna lie. But secondly and more importantly, i don’t think the comparaison is very accurate. When Dumbledore’s sexuality was brought up (again, in 2007), i don’t remember anyone being particularly upset about it (besides the usual suspects, Christian groups, etc.). Most people i talked about it with were either shocked, excited, and/or moved. It’s only much later that the “reveal” was criticised and people tried to pretend JKR had done it for publicity (a claim which can seem particularly absurd once you remember the exact amount of publicity HP enjoyed in July/August 2007). This comes in sharp contrast with Tara’s death, which was taken as a particularly nasty and “cheap” blow by the fandom, right after a particularly derided sixth season. Tara was essentially callously fridged right after the show had partially cashed up on her and Willow’s relationship’s popularity. I don’t believe for a second people got upset because “Tara dying means that gay relationships are always doomed and bad”, because in a show where virtually every romance was doomed only an idiot would believe that.
it’s not unreasonable that we discuss the positives and negatives of his presentation and whether we regard his character as sufficient representation.
What if i want to challenge the whole idea of “sufficient representation”? What if i want to argue that the very concept of “correct” representation is flawed, because representation is first of all important to children, and children need quantity and diversity more than they need a single, perfectly curtailed story meant to tell them what is the ‘correct way’ of portraying X subject? And going even further, what if i want to argue that representation matters, but it’s not ALL that matters. What if i said that the idea that representation should be “sufficient” is based on the notion that your education about homosexuality (or worse, your self-worth) is going to be forged entirely on what kind of TV you watch or books you read, and that notion lifts the responsibility off parents, school, legal bodies, etc. of educating (and, should the occasion arise, supporting) both kids and adults?
Dumbledore exists in an environment which does not appear queer friendly
Because it isn’t. The wizarding world isn’t friendly in general. It was never meant to be. It is meant as a satirical representation of our world (well, specifically of British society, but there are universal aspects to it).
Even at this stage, all these years on, there’s very little queer content in the franchise
And ‘more’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘better’. Much of the modern ‘queer content’ you’re being given at the moment is being cynically put together by corporate bodies who are betting on selling it to ‘queer fans’, many of whom are not in fact gay but are simply fascinated by the idea of homosexuality, the associated aesthetics, and the desire to belong into some cool group that no generation had before. Obviously it’s not all black and white, some of this content is genuinely great because creators typically do their best to do a good job, but the fact that Netflix has an “LGBT” category is clue enough that this is profitable for them, and make no mistake, THIS is why they think ‘representation matters’. I’m not particularly impressed, or excited, by LGBT representation motivated by capitalism. And this is not me saying Warner Bros, or the ‘Wizarding World’ franchise, are not motivated by capitalism, i mean i’m not naive. But at least, the Fantastic Beasts movies are attempting something that is a smidge more subtle and complex.
I 100% agree with @joannerowling . Also, it makes me exceedingly angry that OP doesn’t use the word “gay” a single time when referring to Dumbledore. Is “gay” a strong word for you, OP? Is it too dirty? You think “queer” is safer, don’t you? Currently it’s more palatable and family-friendly since it’s being used in every company advertisement, visual media and celebrities activism, isn’t it?
God forbid us from using a word that specifically describes homosexual men, it’s too much for Americans.
Idk how to explain to you that not everyone online is a US American, and that choices of word use by other people might not be for the reasons you think they are. This has probably to do with the fact that you cannot, in fact, read other people’s minds.
Considering that you are, as you say, straight, maybe IT’S NOT YOUR FUCKING PLACE TO POLICE QUEER PEOPLE’S NAMES FOR THEMSLVES, HOW ABOUT IT?!
Seriously, the audacity. The fucking ENTITLEMENT! You have absolutely NO RIGHT to be “exceedingly angry” about a queer person calling themselves queer.
The Janeway/Seven 2021 Favorite Fanworks Collection
After having a great year of new creations, also thanks to the lovely Borgtober, we in the J7 Alcove Discord decided to collect our favorite Janeway/Seven Fanworks from 2021.
Before we dive into the results, we have one honorable mention for non-J7 to The Autobiography of Kirsten Clancyby@curator-on-ao3, suggested by @communingwithhedgehogs
@sashsweetie says: I think it offers insight into Seven’s reality that’s far more honest than what Voyager provided. Heartbreaking and heartwarming. Unfinished. It’s wonderful, read it anyway.
@copper-coyotesays:Explores Janeway and Seven’s relationship in an interesting way while also investigating the gross behavior of how Seven was treated on the show in a fascinating way! Also Janeway does some MMA
@communingwithhedgehogssays:This was one of my two immediate thoughts for this. It’s such a beautiful fic and I love the imagery of the vignettes - how each tiny everyday moments shows the wonder and beauty of life. The softness and freedom for both Janeway and Seven that is captured the way in these moments with a sense of awe that is wrapped up in the growing closeness between them.
@curator-on-ao3says:The title of this fanwork is perfect because, as a reader, I found myself falling … falling … falling into this world made of soft-as-a-feather poetic prose that shows the gentle beauty of allowing ourselves to fall in love.
The Space in Betweenby@genius2mania, suggested by Anonymous
Anonymous says: It’s well-written, conceptually interesting, really hot, and ultimately very sweet. I love the relationship dynamics explored here, and Seven is so precious. This fic led me to the alcove, so it’s also special for that reason! ❤️
Thank you all for participating! To another year full of lovely new content for this timeless Ship!
So much appreciation to @communingwithhedgehogs for making me cry happy tears with her generous inclusion of my non-J/7 fic on this list of J/7 fabulousness.
If you enjoy J/7, there’s so much goodness here. Enjoy!
Hello! I’d like to share with you a character work game! I call it “Six Secrets” and honestly it’s a work in progress but I’m sharing it anyway
List six secrets that your character has.
1 is an open secret
2 is a secret the people close to your character know
3is a secret that your character wouldn’t really care about getting out
4 is a secret exactly one person knows anything about
5 is a secret no one knows about but they sort of want to come out/to tell someone
6 is a secret no one knows and they desperately don’t want anyone to know about.
You can also decide who knows and how
The secrets don’t have to have anything to do with your actual plot! The secrets can have super low or super high stakes! It doesn’t matter! But you will absolutely have a better idea of your character’s intentions and state of mind, and you may wind up coming up with some new plot points/obstacles to play with
Six Secrets: Kirsten Clancy
Okay, so Picard season 2 is gearing up and I have no idea what (if anything), will happen to Admiral Clancy, so I’m doing this now, even though if something does happen to her that’s just one timeline and my headcanons can stay relevant in the world I created (because fic is for fun, not expectations of canon).
So, for the Clancy in my mind, pulled from canon but who became much more:
1. An open secret: She has strong boundaries (“There is no ‘we,’ Jean-Luc.”) as sometimes over-correction for a childhood that included being used as a political prop by her loving but jingoistic mother.
2.A secret people close to her know: She wishes she could hate Picard because anger can be easier than disappointment.
3. A secret she wouldn’t care about getting out: While she didn’t know that Oh bugged her office, Clancy is proud that her instincts to keep Oh at commodore — stuck at headquarters but outranked by actual decision-makers — proved correct.
4.A secret that exactly one person knows anything about: Only Sonya Gomez knows the Martian-upbringing-induced terrible things Clancy said about Earth and people from Earth, which Clancy inadvertently told her at the Starfleet Academy party at which Clancy found out that snakeleaf makes her paranoid.
5.A secret no one knows but she sort of wants to come out/tell someone: Edward Jellico doesn’t want her to share how much his mentorship and friendship have meant to her — under his command and after the destruction of Mars. She respects that’s what he wants, but wishes he would let her tell more about how much his trust in her has bettered her life.
6.A secret no one knows and she desperately doesn’t want anyone to know about: Starfleet can be dangerous (“You think you could just waltz back in here and be entrusted with taking men and women into space?”) and, when she gets nervous, she tracks the commbadges of people she cares about to check if they’re safe.
I love this!
If you haven’t read it, I highly recommend @curator-on-ao3 ’s amazing fic:
A ridic belated birthday gift for one of my dearest friends - @capo-illy (who makes amazing TMA stuff, please check it out!!). Here frond, have the boys enjoying the some peace and cuddles before they have to go save the world
My body is another year closer to total putrefaction, but I’m glad we can celebrate the occasion with cozy TMA gift art from one of my dearest friends ; ___ ; I love you, man
![inkfinch: [ tangled up sunshine ] A ridic belated birthday gift for one of my dearest friends - @ca](https://64.media.tumblr.com/48865a03ab3b78324f466e495737f0c8/db8bf4a28d5bc1d6-bd/s1280x1920/d058eaa127ac2c6afe581ae279f20b2980fa19aa.png "inkfinch: [ tangled up sunshine ] A ridic belated birthday gift for one of my dearest friends - @ca")
