#yay an ask

I’m replying to a few asks and replies at once. I tried to fix tumblr’s mangling of quotes and other punctuation, apologies if I mangled further. There are a few asks and replies I didn’t respond to because they were very similar to others included here, and a few I didn’t respond to because I accidentally hit the “back” button and tumblr lost my draft and I got confused about what I had and hadn’t responded to, but this covers what I felt was most important to respond to. 

Anonymous asked artthatremindsmeofhannibalnbc a question:

hi! not exactly sure if this is what that anon was talking about, but transphobes have used the term “bi lesbian” to describe lesbians who include trans women in their attraction. it’s separate from its use as a term for split attraction–that specific usage is extremely transphobic. but idk if that’s what anon was talking about

Wow! I’m really glad you told me this. That is really messed up!

So yes, uh, I oppose the term in this usage. Lesbians who include trans women in their attraction are lesbians, no modifier needed.

Anonymous asked artthatremindsmeofhannibalnbc a question

bi lesbian literally originated as a term terfs used for cis lesbians who date trans women. no one who isn’t affected by that sort of transmisogyny has any place calling using the term okay because people claim it means something else now because 1) ppl who aren’t transfeminine using a transmisogynistic dogwhistle as an identity is incredibly poor taste, 2) most “mspec/bi/pan lesbians” now use it to justify fetishizing trans people who don’t identify under the “woman & some non-binary” umbrella instead of just using bi, pan, or sapphic. ffs, sapphic as an umbrella term for all wlwnb exists for a reason without being offensive to trans people, bi people, and lesbians, and accomplishes anything positive that bi lesbian could claim to.

Well, shit. That sounds really fucked up. 

I am learning that there is a larger context to this discussion of which I was entirely ignorant. I apologize for replying without knowing the full story.

thislousytshirt replied to your ask post (this combines 3 replies):

people who do identify as bi-lesbian and mspec lesbian are certainly not terfs. terfs are all about lesbian purism. its not a transphobic phrase and it does not refer to lesbians who date trans women.

the reason being anti-mspec lesbian is terfy is that terfs are very invested in gatekeeping “lesbian” as a term, its sort of an adjacent goal to the transphobia

reasons that someone might identify as bi lesbian: they identify strongly with the word lesbian or identified solely as lesbian in the past but now consider themself bi as well. they mostly like girls but are into other genders as well. they are nonbinary and primarily attracted to girls but are also sometimes not a girl and therefore are bi as well. they are part of lesbian communities that include all wlw in the definition of lesbian.

Thank you for saying this. This is exactly the stuff I was thinking about when I made my original reply. 

doctor-creepy replied to your ask post:

there’s no such thing as being bi and a lesbian? choose one? you can be bi with a preference for women but you’re not a lesbian. lesbian = no attraction to men flat out. ever.

Okay, so. I put the above replies first because I want to make it clear that I realize that my previous post was ill-informed. That said… 

Look. I don’t know anything about you. But “choose one” is a phrase I have pretty much only heard from biphobes. And “lesbian = no attraction to men flat out. ever.” is a sentiment I have pretty much only heard from TERFs.

I apologize if this is simply a case of unfortunate word choice / phrasing, but it is this kind of sentiment that led me to suspect that opposition to these identities is biphobic and transphobic.

doctor-creepy replied to your ask post:

the fuck is it transphobic to only be attracted to womenn

I never said it was.

However, most of the time that I see people say “lesbians are only attracted to women” they mean “trans women aren’t women.” Which is transphobic.

eskamtrash replied to your ask post:

Sorry but isnt “bi lesbian” a lesbophobic and biphobic term in itself?? If youre lesbian you like women (cis and trans women ofc), if youre bi you like more than one gender. You cannot be both at the same time. Not trying to be confronting, but i dont get that term at all

Hi! As I mentioned, I only learned this term a couple of hours ago. I’m learning that there is a wider context of which I was unaware, and that it was ill-done of me to reply without knowing all of the background. 

However, the original information I found when I looked up the term made me think that some people identify this way. And I think that, whether I “get” the term or not, people can identify however they like. 

Yes, “lesbian” means a woman who likes women. In the term “bi lesbian,” “bi” is an adjective. It specifies a type of lesbian. In this case, a bi lesbian. It is not, in my opinion, inherently making any kind of statement on lesbianism, bisexuality, or anyone other than the person who uses this term for themselves. 

It could still be making that statement due to everything else going on in this discussion – see above – but again, other people’s identities aren’t for me to “get.” They’re for the people who identify that way. 

Anonymous asked artthatremindsmeofhannibalnbc a question:

hey! im sorry you are getting rude anons about this, you obviously care about other people and have the best intentions in your opinion on bi lesbians. the argument i see most for the validity of the term is so that lesbians with nonbinary partners or say, partners that come out as male later in their relationship have room in their identity to account for that BUT nuance and The Genders and people growing and changing have always been a part of life as a lesbian and the term “bi lesbian” is a little unnecessary and confusing in my opinion. I think calling it biphobic and lesphobic is a little unfair because that is not anyone’s intention in using it, but it does muddy the water in a way it doesnt need to be muddied. anyways! love your blog and you seem cool, hope u have a nice day!

Thank you so much for this message. Your examples are exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about when I made my original reply.

amourduloup replied to your ask post

that doesn’t make any sense! the term lesbian does not in itself exclude trans women/nb women, at all. lesbians are women attracted exclusively to women, which of course can include trans women and nb women. i don’t understand the need for the term bi lesbian, and it’s obviously a way to further alienate lesbians, and it reinforces the idea that lesbians are attracted to men. i’m bisexual so you can be sure this is not biphobic rhetoric, but i just don’t understand this term or why it needs to exist.

replying because you said explanations are welcome, i don’t mean any disrespect, only a disagreement.

Thank you for replying, it is absolutely welcome. 

I didn’t mean to suggest that the term lesbian excludes trans women or enby women. If it came off that way, I truly apologize. 

As far as I’m concerned, if people identify as bi lesbians, that is why the term exists. Honestly, if people don’t identify this way then yeah, I don’t know why it exists either. 

In a vacuum, I don’t see how it reinforces the idea that lesbians are attracted to men. I think it conveys that bi lesbians are attracted to men. However, this term doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and I once again apologize for my original ill-informed reply. 

The reason I suspected that opposition to the term is biphobic is because biphobes also say that the very existence of bisexual people is harmful to lesbians. Biphobes also say that bisexual people who are with or have only been with people of hetero genders are not queer and that their existence threatens other queer identities. 

The reason I suspected that opposition to the term is transphobic is because people who police lesbian identities – or queer identities in general – are usually transphobic. 

Anonymous asked artthatremindsmeofhannibalnbc a question:

hi! lesbian here! “bi lesbians” and “m-spec lesbians” as identities are damaging to lesbians because lesbian has functionally meant woman or woman-aligned person that’s attracted to only women or woman-aligned people. this is by definition inclusive of trans women because they are women. it’s not biphobic to say that lesbians are not bisexual and bisexuals are not lesbians. words mean things i also don’t really understand why you think it’s transphobic to not support “m-spec lesbians” (½)

(2/2) the lesbian identity already includes trans people?? trans lesbians exist and lesbians who have trans partners also exist?? lesbians are exclusively attracted to women and women-aligned people. it’s lesbophobic to support identities that claim otherwise, and also inherently harmful to lesbians. it’s not biphobic or transphobic to say that lesbian means lesbian.

Hi, thank you taking the time to explain this, I appreciate it.  

I didn’t mean to suggest that the lesbian identity doesn’t include trans people. I apologize if this is how I came off. 

I don’t think the term “bi lesbian” is saying that lesbians are bi. I think it’s saying that some people identify as bi lesbians. My understanding is that it’s a way to describe people who identify as lesbians who are also attracted to genders other than women. I don’t see how this undermines or threatens other lesbian identities, any more than the existence or queer identities undermines or threatens hetero identities. 

There are several examples above of reasons a person might identify as a bi lesbian. What do you think the people in these examples should call themselves if not bi lesbians?  

Anonymous asked artthatremindsmeofhannibalnbc a question:

I think the term bi lesbian is considered distasteful because it erases both the bi and the lesbian experience. Bi ppl face pressure to just pick one, lesbians face the opposite where ppl assume they haven’t found the right man. As for bi lesbians having anything to do with trans ppl–you’re not less of a lesbian for being attracted to a trans woman, yknow? Speaking as a trans person, it’s more alienating to see cis gay ppl (mlm or wlw) using the term bi to justify their attraction to trans ppl.

Hi. Thank you very much for sharing this with me. I’m really glad to know this point of view, and I’m glad you felt comfortable sharing it. I absolutely agree with you that if someone identifies as a “bi lesbian” because they mean “attracted to women and trans women” that’s fucked up and transphobic. 

Anonymous asked artthatremindsmeofhannibalnbc a question:

i dont want to “start discourse” or w/e but i just want to gently say nothing about that statement is “terfy” of involves the exclusion or opression of trans women at all. its between bi and lesbian identities. please dont call random unrelated community issues terfy /terf related unless they actively do those things . not everyone who isnt “inclusive” is a terf

It’s true that not everyone who isn’t inclusive is a TERF. However, TERFs are well-known for converting people to their point of view by making seemingly unambiguous statements that then escalate into excluding people based on their sexual identity and/or gender identity. It was that vibe that led me to say that it sounded TERF-y. 

What I am getting from this discussion is that: 

• some people think the terms “bi lesbian” and “mspec lesbian” are lesbophobic because they think their very existence means that all lesbians are attracted to men 
• some people think the terms are biphobic or lesbophobic because they conflate the two identities, suggests that bi people are really only attracted to one gender (in this case, women), suggests that lesbians are actually attracted to men, or some combination of the above 
• some people think the terms are transphobic because it was invented by TERFs 
• some people think the term is fine and inclusive of trans and nonbinary and that opposing it is transphobic 
• that some people think the term is confusing but fine
• plus probably a lot more that either isn’t represented here or I don’t understand 

My conclusion is that my original reply was ill-informed. I apologize for this, and am making a separate post to apologize without it being buried in this long post. 

I still believe that people can identify how they want and that it’s not my place to police them, that policing lesbian identities is usually transphobic, and that policing bi identities is usually biphobic.