I don’t even know where to start with this like just the sheer amount of “Trans men don’t have issues, shut up, stop whining, it could always be worse”
it’s all classic abuser shit but instead you slapped trans paint on it I don’t have the energy for these self flagellating men
Also, a lot of trans men understand this, especially those who are talking about queer theory and shit. Like there are a lot of transmascs who don’t understand that hypervisibility isn’t a privilege, but many of us do understand that, and keep it in mind (especially because some of us get hit with transmisogyny as well, especially femme & intersex transmascs). We just also recognize that erasure also isn’t a privilege. Saying that trans men can’t complain about erasure is just… so cruel? What are we allowed to complain about, what is “bad enough” that we finally get non-transmascs’ “permission” to speak up?
I’m not sure I believe in the concept of Transandrophobia as it has been previously described to me. For the most part nothing I’ve seen described seems to have any significant differences from garden variety transphobia.
This is no to say that I don’t believe that there aren’t examples of transphobia that are experiences unique to trans men, and it rankly would be hilariously wrong to assume that there aren’t. So I’m not inclined to get hostile or defensive about it as a term transmascs use in general in talking about those experiences.
However I have seen a few bad faith actors use the term as a cudgel to attack some trans women they don’t like, as well as the claim that trans women enjoy increased visibility from cis people while ignoring that that visibility is generally based around the portrayal of us as a threat (i.e. as Sexual predators and invaders into women’s spaces and sports).
There is clearly an important conversation on Trans men’s oppression that needs to happen, but I don’t trust anyone who starts that conversation with an adversarial stance towards trans women.
Also and discussion that starts with the assumption that ‘trans men/women have it easier because x’ is inherently bad faith and I’m not going to entertain it.
Understanding that this is a space for good faith discussion and not for ignorant assholes to come swinging:
I would probably begin by asking you the same. What separates transmisogyny from garden variety transphobia? What aspects of transmisogyny do trans men not experience?
I have seen those bad actors and I have outwardly, openly disagreed with them when they cross my dash. However I also could say the same: I have seen trans women using transmisogyny as both sword and shield to swing at trans men by saying we have it easier or that we need to be put in our place or that we don’t experience oppression at all. I have seen trans women say that even having a name, any name, for what we go through is transmisogyny in and of itself because we’re ‘making transphobia about us’ and ‘only centering ourselves’. I have seen trans women claiming the erasure and invisibility of trans men is actually privilege.
Again, I am not attacking you, nor am I saying all trans women are bad. But I am saying, if we must answer for a few bad actors, why can we not ask the same of others? If we must constantly be reminded, remember trans men can be transmisogynists, why can we also not point out that other transgender people can also treat us badly? That they also can contribute to a system that harms us directly?
A white trans woman recently put me on a blocklist made up of people she claims are transmisogynists and racists. I’m a black trans man who was directly mentored by an older trans woman and who regularly directly contributes to my local transgender community *including by hosting homeless trans women in my house rent-free while they secure safe long-term housing*. I have never spoken to this particular trans woman. She doesn’t know me, or my life, or anything about who I am. Yet she was able to make a bad faith attack against my character by wielding transmisogyny (and racism! from a white woman to a black man!) as a sword against me and as a shield to protect her from any blowback.
Are we not allowed to talk about these bad actors as well? Are we not allowed to be upset? Angry, even, to be spit on by our sisters like this? Are we not allowed to call it out when we see it?
You are under no obligation to answer for bad actors. To pretend that each trans man should be on trial for the actions of the worst would be ridiculous. Its not something you should take from anyone.
I’m only stating that I don’t quite believe in the version that had previously been presented to me. Which I’m pretty convinced was by someone that wasn’t giving a more honest account as their own presentation of it was based entirely around trans men’s position in comparison to trans women. I’d like to get an honest statement on what Transandrophobia actually is, one that is focused more on trans men rather than a version that seemed based around a comparison to trans women.
Very possible, even likely.
“Transandrophobia”, “transmisandry”, “transmascphobia”, “transphobia against trans mascs” no matter what you call it, it means the same thing. Each has had more people concerned about the word itself or the origins of such than what they mean and what they represent.
For the record, when I was mentored and guided by a trans woman old enough to be my parent, using language so old that nowadays it’s considered offensive, it was her opinion and the opinion of those like her that it’s all “transmisogyny”, and that trans men and trans women didn’t actually have that many differences outside of what would be directly influenced by the paths we took via transition. I think the current discourse has done a lot of damage to the unity represented by that belief.
In any case, it is: transphobia + malignment and hatred of those with a complicated relationship with gender and masculine-leaning identities + misogyny. Often with sprinkles of homophobia, racism, intersexism, and ableism on top, as all discussions of gender tend to be.
In life, this looks like:
The rejection of nonbinary people of any designation who are too “male-appearing” from LGBT spaces labeled friendly to “women and nonbinary”
The rampant rape and forcible impregnation of uterus-bearing transgender people as a means of detransition
The resurgence of the “predatory butch” stereotype
The medical abuse and forced feminization of viralized intersex bodies
Deliberately denying lifesaving medical treatment unrelated to transition to trans men, including abortions, pap smears, and cervical/uterine/ovarian cancer treatments
The constant erasure of trans men and trans mascs in history- explaining them as “just lesbians” or “masculine women” even when we have writing from journals and letters and wills stating they wished only to be known as men
The “stolen lesbian” and “butch flight” stereotype
The “fujoshi” stereotype
Laws written specifically to preserve the fertility of all people with uteruses, which have within their writing that they intend to prevent “girls” from “ruining their viability as mothers” due to the “gender craze”
It is not that there is belief that trans women don’t experience their own versions of this- in fact, outside of forced impregnation, I’d guess y’all probably do experience a lot of this same stuff just in a different flavored gender expression. Additionally, most of this is not afab-specific; there’s quite a few discussions circulating where amab trans people are included in this because they are amab and trans but not feminine (or they are feminine but they are bigender, or genderqueer, or they are neutral and Whatever The Fuck They Feel Like Doing That Day).
This is why my old mentor considered it all the same. She felt as though we all experience our own versions of this, it’s all fueled by a combination of transphobia and misogyny, and just repackaged in slightly different colors based on the individual experiencing it. I can’t say I disagree with her.
There are some people who view this discussion as “this is transphobia for trans men” and “that is transphobia for trans women”, and I think that’s not really a bad thing per say, but I think it adds an unnecessary gender line and often oppression isn’t so clearcut. Especially when you remember that nonbinary genders exist and not everyone is “boy” or “girl”.
This is just your regular free-of-charge reminder that when people argue that transandrophobia does not exist, or that its not important enough to talk about, they are explicitly saying they don’t care about sexual assault victims or victims of suicide (among other things).
Addressing these issues means talking about them, and we need a word for what this is in order to do that.
This is what “transandrophobia” is for. This is why we need that word.
It’s not about hurting or blaming trans women, it’s not about saying cis men are oppressed for being men or that cis women aren’t, it’s not a “white issue” or an “MRA” thing- and the people who argue that it is, and that we shouldn’t have the word because it is, are distracting from the real issues. They are taking attention away from, ignoring, and erasing those issues. They not only do not care about them- they want you not to care, too.
They want to remove the language we need in order to talk about these problems. They want us to stop taking about them. They want these problems to continue happening.
It’s not a fucking game.
I misinterpreted my linked post when I was writing this & misrepresented some of these statistics- namely suicidal ideation as attempts, and attempts as victims of suicide. I’d really appreciate if folks could reblog this version instead!
i feel like it is once again really telling given your past in terf spaces that you’re pinning the sexual assault of ‘afabs’ (where did the c go?) and the removal of ‘the language to speak about it’ (as if ‘transandrophobia’ is either accurate or germane as a term) on the main demographic criticising you and yours, i.e. trans women.
The assumption that ‘afab people’ have some kind of monopoly on being subject sexual abuse, domestic violence, or suffering from suicidality are quite literally a function of patriarchy and misogyny. It’s fascinating that the only aspect of womanhood many of you transandros seem to cling to is a process of perpetual victimization. I guess there is a way to make misogyny work for trans men!
Hey@skinfeeler do you wanna tell me where exactly I am pinning the blame on trans women? or, actually, where I have ever pinned the blame for these things on trans women?
“it is known” doesn’t count.
The fact that both of yall saw a post saying “hey transmascs face these problems, we need to be able to talk about and fix them” and immediately felt the need to go on the defense is genuinely astounding to me.
Why the fuck is this such a threat to you? Why can’t you stomach, for even a moment, the thought of lowering rates of violence and suicide among a vulnerable population?
I don’t actually care whether the real, actual statistics of violence transmascs face are “stereotypical” or whatever- that’s not what this is about. It’s not a characterization. These are researched facts presented by widely-respected institutions.
Transmascs are not getting raped and killing themselves to make you look bad or to win a fucking argument. The rate at which transmascs experience sexual assault, suicidal ideation, and suicide attempts, is not about you.
Sorry reblogging this again because I completely missed the “given your past in TERF spaces” bit, and I just feel like I need to reiterate that whatever “past” you are referencing here is completely and totally fabricated. Maybe verify claims before using them as the crux of your argument?
And I cannot imagine trying to frame someone using the same language the study he’s referencing used to survey respondents as, like, a “gotcha” moment, but uh. sure. very intellectual and scientific and also extremely well-researched of you! Your brain is huge and powerful and full of Thoughts for sure.
