#jon snow

rainhadaenerys:

For Jonerys Week 2020

Prompt: Training of Targlings

Ok, I cheated a little bit. This meta could serve for the prompt of the first day, “foreshadowing”, but since I already had something to post on day 1, I decided to post this meta for day 2. And well, the prompt might be “training of Targlings”, but before Jon and Dany can train their Targlings, they first must have their Targlings, right? lol

Anyway, with this meta I want to explain my reasoning for thinking Jon and Dany will have children. One of the hints that this is a possibility is this parallel between Jon and Dany:

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister’s son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly’s boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We’d find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance’s son and Craster’s would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb. - Jon XII ASOS

~

“Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …” Dany could not recall the child’s name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. “I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.” - Daenerys X ADWD

Both Jon and Dany think they will never have children. For Jon, it comes from the fact that he is a man of the Night’s Watch, but also from something else. Since Jon is a bastard, he never considered this possibility:

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.” He put a hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Come back to me after you’ve fathered a few bastards of your own, and we’ll see how you feel.”

Jon trembled. “I will never father a bastard,” he said carefully. “Never!” He spat it out like venom. - Jon I AGOT

So Jon thinking that he can’t have children (and part of his reason for joining the Night’s Watch) also has to do with his marginalization in society, his fear of ever fathering a bastard or subjecting a child of his to this life. With Dany, her (supposed) incapacity to bear children also makes her marginalized as a woman:

Khal Drogo had been her sun-and-stars, her first, and perhaps he must be her last. The maegi Mirri Maz Duur had sworn she should never bear a living child, and what man would want a barren wife? - Daenerys I ACOK

~

“But,” said Reznak mo Reznak, blinking, “but you must, Your Worship. Before a marriage it is traditional for the women of the man’s house to examine the bride’s womb and, ah … her female parts. To ascertain that they are well formed and, ah …”

“… fertile,” finished Galazza Galare. “An ancient ritual, Your Radiance. Three Graces shall be present to witness the examination and say the proper prayers.”

“Yes,” said Reznak, “and afterward there is a special cake. A women’s cake, baked only for betrothals. Men are not allowed to taste it. I am told it is delicious. Magical.”

And if my womb is withered and my female parts accursed, is there a special cake for that as well? “Hizdahr zo Loraq may inspect my women’s parts after we are wed.” Khal Drogo found no fault with them, why should he? - Daenerys VI ADWD

So both Jon and Dany’s impossibility of having children is linked to their marginalization. None of this is, of course, conclusive evidence. One could argue that Dany remaining barren is thematically important as a woman who defined herself beyond her ability to bear children, and that dealt with her barrenness by redefining her concept of motherhood (by becoming both the Mother of Dragons and the Mhysa to the freed slaves). So Dany remaining barren could definitely be a good narrative choice. On the other hand, one could argue that Jon having children is important for him, because he would be overcoming the stigma of being a bastard by having children of his own. So we have arguments both against and in favor of Jon and Dany having children (and I do believe that if any of them has children, it will be with each other, so I’m not entertaining the possibility that they might have children with someone else). But there’s more that makes me think Jon and Dany will have children. And it has a lot to do with Dany’s story and prophecies.

Before I start, I need to credit @oadara, since she was the one who first came up with a lot of what I’m going to talk about now (x,x,x,x), and I’m mostly only going to expand on it, so please go read her metas for even more context. The number three is specially important in Dany’s story. She is called the “child of three” by the Undying, and all of her prophecies come in sets of three: three fires, three mounts, three treasons. Daughter of death, slayer of lies, bride of fire. Three deaths are shown in the daughter of death visions, three lies are shown in the slayer of lies visions, and Dany also has three visions in the bride of fire visions. All of this seems to suggest that Dany’s story will happen in three phases.

Another thing that corroborates the idea that Dany’s story happens in three phases are the Walls of Qarth. As already pointed out in this meta, the images on the Walls of Qarth eerily match the prophecies in the House of the Undying. The first Wall of Qarth is described like this:

Three thick walls encircled Qarth, elaborately carved. The outer was red sandstone, thirty feet high and decorated with animals: snakes slithering, kites flying, fish swimming, intermingled with wolves of the red waste and striped zorses and monstrous elephants. - Daenerys II ACOK

This wall seems to match the beginning of Dany’s story with the Dothraki, and the prophecies in the House of the Undying also seem to match Dany’s time with the Dothraki. I will copy here what I already wrote in the linked meta:

Most of the “firsts” seem to relate to the beginning of Dany’s journey and her life with the Dothraki, just as the first wall of Qarth. Dany’s first fire is “for life” (the dragons), and it happens when she’s with the Dothraki. The treason for blood could be either Mirri betraying Dany, or Dany “betraying” Viserys (as Viserys accuses her in her dream in Dany X ADWD). Either way, it happened with the Dothraki. The first death of the “daughter of death” section is Viserys’ death, that happens with the Dothraki. The first lie to be slayed is Stannis being Azor Ahai, and Dany slayed this lie by becoming Azor Ahai herself when she births the dragons, and this happens when she’s with the Dothraki. The first mount is her silver, and this is also related to the Dothraki. We don’t know some of these, but most of the “first” prophecies seem to match the first Wall of Qarth.

The second wall of Qarth is described like this:

The middle wall, forty feet high, was grey granite alive with scenes of war: the clash of sword and shield and spear, arrows in flight, heroes at battle and babes being butchered, pyres of the dead. - Daenerys II ACOK

This wall seems to match the second stage of Dany’s life, her time with the Dothraki, and her second prophecies in the House of the Undying also seem to match this:

Most of the “seconds” of the prophecies seem to relate to moments of war or moments in Slaver’s Bay, just like the second wall of Qarth is full of scenes of war. Dany’s second fire is “for death”. Her second mount is “to dread” (and it could relate to Drogon or her marriage to Hizdahr, either way it’s related to war and Slaver’s Bay). Her second vision in the daughter of death section is of Rhaego, who would be the Stallion who Mounts the World. But since he died, Dany took his place, and she will be the Stallion, which will also be related to war. The second lie she must slay is the “cloth dragon”, which most people assume to be Young Griff, and Dany will probably go to war against him as well. The corpse at the prow of a ship (the second vision of the bride of fire prophecy) could be Hizdahr being killed by Victarion, which will also happen in the context of war in Slaver’s Bay. So most of the second visions Dany has relate to war, just like the second wall of Qarth.

And the third wall is described like this:

The innermost wall was fifty feet of black marble, with carvings that made Dany blush until she told herself that she was being a fool. She was no maid; if she could look on the grey wall’s scenes of slaughter, why should she avert her eyes from the sight of men and women giving pleasure to one another? - Daenerys II ACOK

The third wall shows scenes of love, which also matches the “thirds” in Dany’s prophecies:

And Dany’s third prophecies seem to mostly relate to love. Fire to love, mount to love and treason for love. In the daughter of death section, her third vision is of Rhaegar speaking the name of a woman (a woman that he loved), and Rhaegar is the father of the man Dany will love (Jon). Her third vision in the bride of fire section is Jon himself, which once again is linked to love. So most of Dany’s “thirds” seem to relate to love, just like the third wall of Qarth.

Both the Walls of Qarth and the visions in the House of the Undying seem to corroborate the idea that Dany’s story has three stages (and there’s even more threes, so check the links above), and that the last stage of her journey will be centered around love. And unlike what some people speculate, it doesn’t seem to be just any kind of love (like love for humanity) but a specific kind of love: romantic and sexual.

So, based on the idea that Dany’s story has three stages, how do we define each stage, and how does the idea that Dany’s story has three stages leads to the idea that Dany (and Jon) will have children?

Well, I would say that at the end of each stage of Dany’s story, she experiences a rebirth: the first rebirth is obviously walking into Drogo’s pyre and hatching her dragons. Her second rebirth is when she finally rejects the peace in Meereen, flies on Drogon and is reborn in the Dothraki sea.

Both Dany’s rebirths have elements in common: in both, she survives unscathed a fire that burns away her hair (Drogo’s funeral pyre, and Drogon’s dragonfire that burns Dany’s hair away in Daznak’s pit). In both, she is reborn with a different resolve: the Dany that comes out of Drogo’s pyre is no longer the scared little girl of the past, but a strong leader. The Dany that comes out of Daznak’s Pit and the Dothraki Sea is no longer the insecure queen that compromises with slavers, but that will defeat them with fire and blood. And the last thing in common of both rebirths is this: in a way, Dany chooses her dragons over her human children.

At the end of AGOT, in one of the moments Dany wakes up from her fever dreams, her first thoughts are not to her human child, but to her dragons:

“Yes, Khaleesi.” Quick as that Jhiqui was gone, bolting from the tent, shouting. Dany needed … something … someone … what? It was important, she knew. It was the only thing in the world that mattered. She rolled onto her side and got an elbow under her, fighting the blanket tangled about her legs. It was so hard to move. The world swam dizzily. I have to …

They found her on the carpet, crawling toward her dragon eggs. Ser Jorah Mormont lifted her in his arms and carried her back to her sleeping silks, while she struggled feebly against him. Over his shoulder she saw her three handmaids, Jhogo with his little wisp of mustache, and the flat broad face of Mirri Maz Duur. “I must,” she tried to tell them, “I have to …”

“… sleep, Princess,” Ser Jorah said. - Daenerys IX AGOT

She thinks she needs something, that this something is “the most important thing in the world”, and it was not her husband of her son, but her dragon eggs. It takes some time before Dany finally thinks of Rhaego:

Jhiqui would have run as well, but Dany caught her by the wrist and held her captive. “What is it? I must know. Drogo … and my child.” Why had she not remembered the child until now? “My son … Rhaego … where is he? I want him.”

Her handmaid lowered her eyes. “The boy … he did not live, Khaleesi.” Her voice was a frightened whisper.

Dany released her wrist. My son is dead, she thought as Jhiqui left the tent. She had known somehow. She had known since she woke the first time to Jhiqui’s tears. No, she had known before she woke. Her dream came back to her, sudden and vivid, and she remembered the tall man with the copper skin and long silver-gold braid, bursting into flame.

She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet … she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been. - Daenerys IX ADWD

Which is not to say that Dany is an uncaring mother. She does weep for her son in her dream (and she later grieves him), but as she wakes up, she feels as if “he had never been”, because she unconsciously knows what happened. She unconsciously already feels that her choice to try to save Drogo, and Jorah bringing her into the tent, led to her son’s death, so the only thing left for her, the most important thing in the world that is left, are her dragons. Her choice to wake the dragons can also be seen as the least “peaceful/conforming” choice: Dany could be a good girl and go peacefully to the dosh khaleen as she was supposed to and as Rakharo wanted her to do (“You are khaleesi,” Rakharo said, taking the arakh. “I shall ride at your side to Vaes Dothrak beneath the Mother of Mountains, and keep you safe from harm until you take your place with the crones of the dosh khaleen. No more can I promise.” - Daenerys X AGOT), but Dany chooses to defy norms, and waking the dragons makes it possible for her to do that.

At the end of ADWD, in Dany’s second rebirth, Dany is once again presented with a choice between her dragon children and her human children:

“Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …” Dany could not recall the child’s name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. “I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.”

Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children. - Daenerys X ADWD

In a way, it can be said that she chooses her dragons. Which is not to say that she has turned her back on the freedmen (she still cares very much about them, as can be seen in this meta), and which is not to say that Dany is wrong in choosing her dragons/war (because the peace was unjust, and Dany needs to embrace her dragons in order to be able to better protect her human children). But at this point in ADWD, Dany is feeling disillusioned, and thinks that she she is only good for war and destruction(she is wrong, btw):

“It is such a long way,” she complained. “I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.”

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass. - Daenerys X ADWD

So by choosing war/her dragons, even if it’s necessary and even if the war is just, Dany still feels like a failure and that a choice in favor of war/her dragons means that she can’t plant trees, and forgetting Hazzea’s name is symbolic of Dany accepting more collateral damage. Which can be considered, in a way, prioritizing her dragon children over her human children (though, again, things are much more nuanced than that).

Ok, so what we have in both rebirths is Dany prioritizing her dragon children over her human children. And prioritizing her dragons also means choosing the less peaceful/conformist way (not going to the dosh khaleen, not accepting the peace with the slavers). So in a way, she is opting for war/confront both times, and this has consequences. These consequences are symbolized by something that happens in both of Dany’s rebirths: Dany loses a child.

The first time is obvious: Dany’s choices lead to Rhaego’s death (even if unintentionally). And in the second rebirth, Dany suffers a miscarriage:

She was bleeding, but it was only woman’s blood. The moon is still a crescent, though. How can that be? She tried to remember the last time she had bled. The last full moon? The one before? The one before that? No, it cannot have been so long as that. - Daenerys X ADWD

Dany is bleeding, but the timing is wrong: her period usually comes during full moons, and the moon is a crescent. So this is the first hint that this is not simply “moon’s blood”, Dany is having a miscarriage. Not only that but from this quote, we can also see that Dany never stopped having her period after Mirri told her she was barren (or else Dany wouldn’t be trying to remember when she last had her period, because she would already know that it was before Mirri cursed her). So if she’s wondering here when was the last time she had her period, it must mean that it has been one to three months since her last period, which indicates she was pregnant. We also have this quote:

Her belly was empty, her feet sore and blistered, and it seemed to her that the cramping had grown worse. Her guts were full of writhing snakes biting at her bowels. She scooped up a handful of mud and water in trembling hands. By midday the water would be tepid, but in the chill of dawn it was almost cool and helped her keep her eyes open. As she splashed her face, she saw fresh blood on her thighs. The ragged hem of her undertunic was stained with it. The sight of so much red frightened her. Moon blood, it’s only my moon blood, but she did not remember ever having such a heavy flow. Could it be the water? If it was the water, she was doomed. She had to drink or die of thirst. - Daenerys X ADWD

Here, we see that Dany is having terrible cramps, which seems to indicate that this isn’t simply moon’s blood, but a miscarriage. And we also have Dany saying that her flow is heavier than normal, which is another indication that this is not a normal period, but a miscarriage.

So having said that, I think it’s clear that in both of Dany’s rebirths, Dany lost a child. And I think losing her human children is symbolic of the consequences of Dany’s choices, of choosing her dragons and also of choosing war (as if the loss of children was symbolic of Dany’s belief that she can have no peace and can plant no trees). Now, since Dany’s story seems to follow a pattern, and her story has three phases, I am very confident that Dany will get pregnant again. And she is going to be presented with a similar choice: her dragons or her human children.

I find it unlikely that everything will happen exactly in the same way as Dany’s first two rebirths. I don’t think it makes much sense for GRRM to write Dany making the same choice once again, keeping her character stagnant. I think her third rebirth will show her character development, and it can happen in two ways:

• Dany, this time, could choose her human child over her dragons. This could also be symbolic of Dany choosing peace (her human child) over war (her dragons).

I find this option a little bit simplistic considering the nuance in Dany’s story about how peace is not always good and war is not always bad. Which brings me to the second option:

• Dany could realize that it doesn’t have to be a choice between her human children and her dragon children, that she can conciliate both. That she doesn’t have to be a dragon who plants no trees, but a dragon that can wage war when necessary, but also a dragon that can plant trees.

Whatever option happens, I think it makes no sense for the last rebirth to be the same as the first two, and I think this time, Dany’s child would be born, which would be symbolic of Dany’s new choices and character development. So to me, it makes a lot of sense for Dany to have a child at the end of the story.

Before I get to the conclusion, there’s also another argument for why I believe Dany will have a child: because Mirri’s semi-prophecy is a Chekhov’s gun. Mirri might not necessarily be intentionally making a prophecy, but simply telling Dany that Khal Drogo will never return, just to mess with Dany. But the fact that GRRM makes Dany constantly think of Mirri’s words (“When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.”), and the fact that these things actually happen (Quentyn Martell, the sun, rises in the west and sets/dies in the east, her dragons set the Meereenese pyramids on fire, which are the mountains blowing in the wind, the Dothraki sea goes dry, and Dany’s womb quickens), seem to indicate that something more will come from this. And there would be no reason at all for GRRM to make Dany miscarry in ADWD if we were not meant to question if Dany really is infertile. So I think that making Dany barren, giving her a “prophecy” and then making her have a miscarriage are all Chekhov’s guns for Dany having a child in the future.

But why Jon? If Dany is supposed to have children, couldn’t it be with anyone else? Well, it could, if it weren’t for this:

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness… . mother of dragons, bride of fire … - Daenerys IV ACOK

The blue flower in the wall of ice is without doubt Jon. And this comes during the bride of fire prophecy, and it’s the third vision of the prophecy, meaning that it will happen during the third phase of Dany’s story, the one that is focused on romantic and sexual love. So I think if Dany has a child, there’s really no one else that could be the father but Jon.

CONCLUSION

I think there is evidence that Dany and Jon might have children in the future. Both want children, but think that they can’t have them, and this is linked to their marginalization. Jon having children could be a great way to show Jon overcoming the stigma of being a bastard. Dany having children is more controversial, since her being barren is thematically important, but having children is also linked to her character development in terms of symbolism and the stages of her journey. Given the pattern of Dany’s rebirths, and the phases of her story, I’m inclined to believe that she will indeed have children. And if she does have them, it will be with Jon.

So will Dany and Jon live to train their Targlings? I think they will. I see no point in making Jon have children, after all this time thinking that he couldn’t have them because he was a bastard, only to be killed off. And I also see no point in have Dany thinking that she is good for nothing but war, that she can’t have peace (which is symbolized by both times she chooses her dragons and loses a child), only for her story to end exactly like that, or for her to finally have a child but die because she’s supposedly not made for peace (which would contradict the very symbolic idea of Dany having a child in the first place, because having a child is supposed to symbolize Dany being able to have peace). Not to mention that I just don’t think there’s enough time for Dany to have a child and later die in the War for the Dawn, so having a child would have to happen at the very end or in an epilogue. I think that, if I’m correct about Jon and Dany having children, it’s very likely that this will be a culmination of both their stories: Jon finally overcoming the stigma of being a bastard, and being able to belong, to build a family like he wanted but thought he couldn’t have. And Dany finally having a home and a family that she wanted, and her child symbolizing her character growth from the Dany who thought she could only be good for war and destruction, to the Dany that is able to conciliate the necessity for war with the also necessary peace and rebuilding.

Dragons and their riders aesthetic.

“I am the blood of the dragon.”

1. Theon returns and it doesn’t go over well.

I just really want Jon to knock him out with a single punch. Oh the satisfaction would run deep if he does.

2. Dany learns of Olenna’s death and the trap the Unsullied have fallen into.

After Dany gets word of her ‘Tyrion’s’ plans failing (well they did work buuuttt nothing ever goes to plan), she comes crawling to Jon wanting to make an alliance (**cough**cough**).

But before she comes to Jon, I think possibly Varys is going to learn of the gold the Lannister army is transporting and share such information with Dany or Tyrion.

Then she is going to come to Jon for his help. Not only with the offer to form an alliance, but to ask his thoughts on how to go about their impending attack on the Lannister forces. I’m assuming that Tyrion is going to suggest a different approach than to attack, (b/c of Jamie) but the Dragon is gonna get woke son.

3. Cersei’s payment to the Iron Bank is going to go up in smoke. Literally.

Does anyone else notice this scenery looks a little….familiar?

That is looks, dare I say a little….Dothraki Sea ish?

I bet it will be a good battle, but I think the Dothraki are going to come in like the tsunami of savages they are and run the Lannister army into the ground.

I’m questioning whether Jamie makes it through this battle. Either A) He dies fighting the Dothraki or torched, or B) He gets taken prisoner. Whatever happens, that sword of his needs to make it’s way North.

Can’t wait to see what happens when Cersei finds out all her precious gold she was going to give to the iron bank gets taken from her brother-lover’s hand.

4. Littlefinger attempts to kill a Stark.

We all saw that SOB whip out his precious Valyrian steel dagger in that promo.

My first guess is that he is going to go after Bran. Yet the promo makes it look like he’s going after Sansa. 

And all though the promo feature’s Brienne and Podrick fighting, I think they are just sparring in the episode and they edited that in there for it to seem like its them that catch him.

5. Ayra’s home bitches.

I hope that with all that is mighty in this world, Arya catches Littlefinger in the act and slits that bastard’s throat.

It would be just as satisfying if Sansa would be the one to get that whispering troll too. Not gonna lie.

oh and last but certainly not least

6. Jon’s taking Dany into a cave.

We all know what Jon likes to do in caves.

ashotofjac:

I was re-reading A Game of Thrones, and several quotes from an early Tyrion chapter made me think of a post secretlyatargaryen wrote regarding Tyrion and the fantasies he used to harbor of his abusers (Tywin, Cersei) dying violently. It was met with negativity toward Tyrion, which I think perhaps can be negated with even the most superficial of readings. 

The following two quotes are from Tyrion’s chapter as he rides from Winterfell with Benjen, Jon, Yoren, and recruits to the Wall.

Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

“No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t…”

“No? Never?” Tyrion raised an eyebrow. “Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I’m certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he’s always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father…he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night’s Watch…” (Tyrion, A Game of Thrones)

Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed. (Tyrion, A Game of Thrones)

A pretty obvious parallel set up by GRRM, and within two pages of each other in the same chapter. Obviously, when Jon looks into the flames, he is not thinking of his father or sister as Tyrion did - Jon has been shown to have a loving relationship with Arya, and his numerous callbacks to Ned’s lessons imply a good relationship there as well - but Tyrion was on the nose in identifying the main two people Jon had (minor and major) problems with growing up.

This comes back around later when Stannis Baratheon offers Jon the north; Jon refuses under the excuse that Winterfell is Sansa’s, but his following chapters show he can’t help but think about Catelyn and Robb’s constant reminder of his bastard status and how he would never deserve or inherit the north as Ned’s heir, despite secretly wanting it.

All in all, no. It is not creepy that Tyrion had these fantasies. For any child being abused, I think perhaps it’s a coping method. These fantasies of dragonfire made Tyrion feel strong and mighty when all he has ever been considered is stunted, twisted, and ugly.

“Oh it would be so sweet to see him once again.”

Jon Snow and Sansa Stark from Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire

In my own headcanon Jon doesn’t spend his life in exile but gets pardoned by the Queen in the North and returns home to Sansa in Winterfell after the finale. Then they spend the rest of their lifes making each other happy! A dream of spring!