Yes,Loki series director Kate Herron knows about your fan theory about the show, the analysis you posted to social media. No, she won’t tell you what she thinks about it, or whether you were right.
“I follow all the conversations on Twitter,” Herron told Polygon in an interview shortly after Loki’s season 1 finale. “I don’t always weigh in on them, because I made the show, so they don’t want me weighing in like, ‘Actually, guys…’ I think that’s the whole point of art — it should be up for debate and discussion.”
[Ed. note: Spoilers ahead for season 1 of Loki.]
Lokihas been a hit for streaming service Disney Plus — episode 6 of the show, the final installment for this season, was reportedly watched by more households than any of the platform’s MCU finales to date. The series has been a popular source of fan conjecture and argument, with one particularly big rolling conversation focusing on whether the budding romantic relationship between trickster Asgardian Loki (Tom Hiddleston) and his alternate-universe counterpart Sylvie (Sophia Di Martino) is a form of incest.
Herron is willing to speak up about that one. “My interpretation of it is that they’re both Lokis, but they aren’t the same person,” she says. “I don’t see them as being like brother and sister. They have completely different backgrounds […] and I think that’s really important to her character. They sort of have the same role in terms of the universe and destiny, but they won’t make the same decisions.”
Herron says thematically, Loki falling for Sylvie is an exploration of “self-love,” but only in the sense that it’s Loki learning to understand his own motives and integrity. “[The show is] looking at the self and asking ‘What makes us us?’” Herron says. “I mean, look at all the Lokis across the show, they’re all completely different. I think there’s something beautiful about his romantic relationship with Sylvie, but they’re not interchangeable.”
Directing the final kiss between the two characters was a complicated process because it had to communicate something about each of them over the course of just a few seconds. Herron says the primary goal was creating a safe, comfortable environment for Hiddleston and Di Martino, and after that, she had to think about how to bring across Loki and Sylvie’s conflicting goals in that moment.
“It’s an interesting one, right?” she says. “Emotionally, from Sylvie’s perspective, I think it’s a goodbye. But it’s still a buildup of all these feelings. They’ve both grown through each other over the last few episodes. It was important to me that it didn’t feel like a trick, like she was deceiving him. She is obviously doing that, on one hand, but I don’t feel the kiss is any less genuine. I think she’s in a bad place, but her feelings are true.”
Herron says directing Hiddleston in the scene mostly came down to discussing the speech Loki gives Sylvie before the kiss. “That was really important, showing this new place for Loki,” Herron says. “In the first episode, he’s like, ‘I want the throne, I want to rule,’ and by episode 6, he isn’t focused on that selfish want. He just wants her to be okay.”
Loki writer and producer Eric Martin recently tweeted that he wished the show had been able to focus more time on two of its secondary characters, Owen Wilson’s Time Variance Authority agent Mobius M. Mobius, and Gugu Mbatha-Raw’s Ravonna Renslayer. “I wanted to explore her more deeply and really see their relationship,” he says, “But covid got in the way and we just didn’t have time.”
Asked if Loki and Sylvie’s relationship suffered from similar necessary edits, Herron says it’s true that the show’s creators and audience still don’t know everything Sylvie went through to make her so different from the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s original version of Loki. “We’ve seen her as a child, but she’s lived for thousands and thousands of years, in apocalypses on the run,” she says. “I think there’s so much more to delve into with Sylvie […] You’re filling in the blanks. You see [her on the planet] Lamentis, and it’s horrific. And you’re like, “Well, what kind of person would she be, growing up in apocalypses? What kind of personality would that give her?”
Herron says Sylvie’s backstory actually reminds her of the 1995 movie Jumanji, where a young boy is sucked into a magical board game in 1969, and emerges 26 years later as a full-grown man, played by with typical manic energy by Robin Williams. “It’s such a weird reference, but…” she says. “He’s a little boy when he ends up captive in that game, and when he comes out, it’s obviously been a life experience. With Sylvie, it’s similar. She was a child when she had to go on the run, so she’s had a very difficult life. I would love to see more of it. As Eric said, she’s a rich character, there’s so much to be explored.”
Herron says, though, that during her time on the show, material about Sylvie was added rather than cut — specifically, those scenes of her as a child, being kidnapped by the TVA. “This was before my time, but I know in the writers’ room, there were lots of avenues exploring Sylvie on the run and what her life was like,” Herron says. “I wouldn’t want to speak more to those, because I wasn’t there when they were being discussed. But something wasn’t in there that was important to me — I felt we should see her [history] in the TVA. Me and the team were talking about how it made complete sense, because episode 4 is all about twisting the idea that the TVA might be good on its head. And so that’s something that came in later, once I joined, was seeing her as a child. I think we needed to see that, not to understand her completely, but to get an idea of her motivations, why she’s so angry at this place.”
Talking more broadly about the series finale, Herron says the last few episodes weren’t as heavily referential as the first episodes, which she intended as “a love letter to sci-fi.” While early images like the TVA’s interrogation rooms had specific visual references from past science fiction, episode 6’s locations were drawn more from collaborations with the crew.
“The idea of the physical timeline being circular, our storyboard artists came up with that,” Herron says. “I had in the scripts, ‘We move through space to the end of time,” and then me and [storyboard artist Darrin Denlinger] discussed how we could play with the idea of time, while also adding MCU nods. He was like, ‘What if the timeline is circular?’ I think that’s such a striking image, like the Citadel at the End of Time is the needle on a record player. I just thought that was such a cool image, but it wasn’t necessarily taken from anything.”
Episode 6 focuses heavily on the mysterious figure He Who Remains and his citadel, a space she says was largely conceived by production designer Kasra Farahani. “I remember he brought in the art of the Citadel, and I thought it was beautiful,” Herron says. “He said, ‘The Citadel has been carved from an actual meteorite,’ which I thought was such an inspired idea. And He Who Remains’ office is the only finished portion of it.”
She says there are only a few direct homages in episode 6, including the zoom shot through space, which directly referenced a similar sequence in Robert Zemeckis’1997 film Contact.
“And then I have my Teletubbies reference for episode 5,” Herron says. “I wanted the Void to feel like an overgrown garden, like a kind of forgotten place. And I realized I’d pitched it as the British countryside. I remember trying to explain it to ILM, who did the visual effects, and saying, ‘Oh, you know, it’s like the Teletubbies. It’s just rolling hills, but they go on forever.’ That actually was quite a helpful reference in the end, which is funny.”
Asked for her favorite set memory from shooting the season, Herron says it comes down to Tom Hiddleston starting a mania for physical exertion before takes. “Sometimes he runs around set to get himself in the right mindset before he performs,” she says. “He does pushups. You know, you’re going into an action scene, you want to look like you’ve just been running. And it became infectious across all the cast. We’ve got so much footage of — I think Jack [Veal] ended up doing it, who plays Kid Loki. I’ve got [shots of] him and Sophia doing pushups and squats, just to get ready. It was so funny watching that echo across all the cast. I think all of them ended up doing those exercises with him at some point. It was so funny.”
“That might be my favorite set story, but it’s honestly, not a sweet one,” she adds. “I would say my favorite thing is his enthusiasm. He’s a very kind empathetic person. We were filming this in quite tough circumstances, a lot of people were far from home and isolating, and he brought this warmth and energy and joy to the set every day. And I think that made everyone feel very safe and very bonded. I’m forever grateful to him for doing that.”
Tom Hiddleston, Natalie Holt, Kate Herron, and Michael Waldron attend the LOKI FYC Event at the Silver Screen Theatre at the Pacific Design Center in Los Angeles, CA on May 22, 2022. (Photos by Alberto E. Rodriguez/Getty Images for Disney)
tom hiddleston improvised the cute and hilarious thor reference in loki !! director kate herron has revealed— “I think Tom had a good time and he improvised that line, ‘Another,’ which obviously is an amazing reference to [Loki’s] brother,”she told Thrillist.
so stinking cute!! truly displays tom’s love and appreciation for marvel and his character loki !! !! ♡
Whether it’s a galaxy far far away, the crime-riddled streets of some derelict city, or (in this case) the multiverse-guarding headquarters of the Time Variance Authority (TVA), one can find no safer hands for a beloved franchise than those of Kate Herron.
The British director has delivered Disney+ its most watched Marvel series to date with Loki. Like WandaVision, the series takes place directly after the events of AvengersInfinity War and Endgame.
In the opening episode, this lesser-evolved Loki (who now escapes capture using the Tesseract in the year 2012) sees the evolution —and ultimately the demise — of his character across Thor The Dark World, Thor Ragnarok and Avengers Infinity War.
That key scene, where actor Tom Hiddleston reacts to a 1970s-like film reel showing his would-be future, was a key part of Herron’s vision. The director came to the project with a clear plan for his character and the otherworldly hierarchy that Loki encounters at the TVA.
Herron’s extensive pitch deck convinced Marvel producer Kevin Feige that she was the right person to direct all six episodes of Loki’s first season. Herron quickly gained that same trust with the cast and crew as they battled through COVID and lockdowns while filming in Atlanta, Georgia.
A major highlight of the Disney+ series is the career-redefining performance by Owen Wilson. Wilson brilliantly morphs into the character of Mobius, a clever TVA agent who forms an unlikely bond with Loki.
When Herron spoke to Awards Focus, she delved into the creation of Mobius’ look and what it took to land Wilson, her collaboration with BAFTA nominated Loki composer Natalie Holt, and her upcoming comic book The Storkening (out July 20th via Skybound Entertainment).
AWARDS FOCUS: First of all, congratulations on directing all six episodes of your first Marvel series. We all just learned that Loki is the most viewed Marvel series, thanks to the Kevin Feige announcement.
I wonder if you can reflect on the recent Los Angeles in-person Loki Emmy FYC panel that featured Tom Hiddleston, writer MIchael Waldron, composer Natalie Holt, and yourself? The standing ovation from the crowd at the Pacific Design Center isn’t something that’s common for these events.
Kate Herron: It was massively flattering to see so many people there. It was the first Loki event I’ve been able to do in-person, so it was so nice to meet fans of the show. I loved watching it with an audience too, it always feels more immersive on the big screen.
AF: You’ve often talked about your expansive pitch deck that landed you this series. It’s commonplace in the industry for directors to hire outside companies and graphic artists to secure the look that they want for a pitch deck. How did you go about making your Loki deck?
Herron: I didn’t know directors did this and now I feel like I’ve been doing it all wrong (laughs). I didn’t have any kind of money to hire anyone, so it was me at my parents’ kitchen table toiling away for two weeks.
I had already chatted virtually with Marvel executives Kevin Wright and Stephen Broussard, bombarding them with images and ideas. Based off those chats, I put together a very lo-fi but very extensive power point presentation.
Every time I talk about this presentation it seemingly gets longer, you can write that I did 300 slides to really add to the myth (laughs).
AF: Meeting Kevin Feige is a big moment in anyone’s career, but from what I understand, the most pressure-filled meeting was the one you had with Owen Wilson. Landing him for the role of TVA agent Mobius was solely on your shoulders, correct?
Herron: Yes, my Casting Director Sarah Finn was like Owen wants to speak to you and only you!, The pressure was on, but it quickly became a great conversation… I think we both realized how self-deprecating we both are, so it was just a nice chat about why he’d be great and why I was so excited to work with him.
I fell in love with Owen’s work, both as actor and writer, through his collaborations with Wes Anderson. It was very surreal to chat with him about that while building this very different character together.
AF: The look for Mobius was quite a departure, it pushes blond Wedding Crashers Owen out of our consciousness. Was that an obvious choice or a battle with Owen or the studio?
Herron: I remember Marvel were like, “Okay let’s do a test,” when we pitched that look to them. From my first conversation with Owen, he wanted to do something outside himself and what people expected from him.
AF: Having wanted to helm all the episodes yourself, what did you find most appealing and consequently challenging about that undertaking?
Herron: Well, for me it was a massive step-up as I had done episodes on other peoples shows, so this was an opportunity to show how I could lead and bring a vision to a very ambitious ask.
Kevin Feige said that he wanted to run our show, not in your traditional showrunner system but how they run their movies. So it was setting out to make a six-hour Marvel movie on a tv-schedule which is a massive challenge but that was a big part of the appeal for me.
AF: You’ve submitted episode five for Emmy consideration, which to me, is the apex of the series (in no small part to Richard E. Grant’s performance). Can you walk me through the process of filming that episode and the emotional climax?
Herron: I really love this episode as our audience has just learned the mid-season twist that the TVA’s motives are nefarious and it seems like Loki has just been killed.
Tonally, I feel this episode really captures the balance across the whole show, that fine line of chaos, heart, and drama. We teased the idea of multiple Loki’s early in the show and this episode is where we made good on that.
From a story perspective, I loved what this episode does for our Loki, who is surrounded by these other versions of himself and he couldn’t be more different. It shows how much he’s evolved across the season. And it has my absolute favorite scene, the conversation between B-15 (Wunmi Mosaku) and Renslayer (Gugu Mbatha-Raw).
The episode closes with our lead Loki having an existential crisis about who he is falling in love with and who he’s becoming, at the same time we’re witnessing this powerhouse performance from Richard E. Grant.
AF: The episode really is VFX heavy, with Grant’s Loki erecting an entire city. Who in your team is responsible for that massive undertaking and what input are you giving in pre-vis?
Herron: Oh yes, the series in total had 2,524 VFX shots and a significant amount were just in this episode. I was lucky to have the best team that a person could want. I worked on this episode with my editor Calum Ross (Sex Education). As a team, we both have a strong handle on emotion and character, but this was easily the biggest outing we’ve had effects wise.
We were surrounded by a brilliant team, VFX Supervisor Dan DeLeeuw, Jesse Lewis-Evans heading our pre-vis team at The Third Floor and the brilliant minds of ILM. This episode is the graft of hundreds of talented artists. Initially Dan, Jesse, Calum and I worked over Christmas putting this together for my first cut and it was a beast.
On a movie, you’d have months to do a sequence like this, but with our schedule we were cramming this into a month to make our test screening and get a working version.
Like anything, you keep working on it, working with your team and Marvel to get it across the finish-line. I was so excited to be working with the legendary Victoria Alonzo also on the show and I feel I learnt so much from her on every zoom call we had looking at shots and refining.
AF: I read that Tom was shooting pick ups for the first episode while filming episode five, for Tom and yourself, how did you balance the production demands amid early COVID protocols in Atlanta?
Herron: Credit to my first AD Richard Graves for not only orchestrating this chaos, but also doing it with a smile. I mean it was a challenge, I’m always incredibly grateful to the hundreds of people who gave their time making this with us because it was challenging to be making this project in normal circumstances.
Adding a pandemic on top of it, it was a just big ask to ask people to come work for us. I honestly felt grateful to be working when so many people weren’t, so I just felt that we can’t waste this opportunity.
AF: One of the benefits of the pandemic shutting down production was that you were able to hire a composer to start working on themes. Can you tell me how you landed on Natalie Holt, who has since been BAFTA nominated for her Loki score?
Herron: On Sex Education, I shot the second half of season one and remember how useful it was to have the music (by Oli Julian and Ezra Furman) available to use in the edit.
I’m a musically driven filmmaker and I play music to help find the tone in what I’m doing. When we were no longer able to continue the shoot, I immediately started editing, trying to soak up that extra time for VFX, storyboards and going back into the scripts.
At the same time, I knew getting a composer would be key. We had a sort of cook-off with a few brilliant composers giving us their take on the show, but when it came to Natalie’s pitch… immediately we both were creatively in-line with each other.
I loved how she talked about her score in relation to character and she just got the tone. Not to mention also being a big fan of theremin.
AF: Having worked previously with actress Sophia Di Martino, what made her the right choice for Loki variant Sylvie? And when it came to casting He Who Remains, what involvement did you have in casting Jonathan Majors?
Herron: So Sophia and I met through the comedy scene in the UK. We had done improv together and I’d persuaded her to do various lo-fi projects with me over the years.
She always blew me away with how funny she could be, but also showcase this ability to play pain and regret. I wanted her to come in and read for us, and she of course nailed it.
With Jonathan Majors, it was an honor to be part of a conversation with Kevin Feige and Marvel on a role that will have a defining presence in the MCU. Jonathan is of the best actors out there. As soon as we knew he was interested, I knew our finale would be safe because it’s a real challenge, coming in at the end of a show and owning it. That takes force and presence, and Jonathan has that in spades.
AF: From a directing standpoint, you’ve showcased a tremendous amount of talent from yours days on Sex Education to Loki. Given that you also contributed story ideas to Loki, I’d love to highlight some of story beats.
Herron:One thing that springs to mind for me, is that in our first episode for example, we were originally going to be cutting to clips and scenes but I wanted to avoid any kind of full flashbacks, I wanted to keep the audience in that room with Tom Hiddleston.
So, I pitched this idea when I first met everyone of Loki watching his memories play out on a stage. I was inspired by the moment in Miniority Report where Tom Cruise’s character sees his loved one who has passed away, it’s so emotionally effective. That felt emotionally right to me, and you know, always steal from the best.
AF: With July just around the corner, I wanted to ask about your partnership with Skybound Entertainment for The Storkening comic book, which is part of a larger anthology series? Herron: My partner, Briony Redman, and I have written a comic together for the upcoming, horror series Afterschool based on the Afterschool special. Ours is about an urban legend where if you try and get rid of your baby, a monstrous stork tries to force you to keep it. The myth is, “Scratches to mark you, a feather to warn you, then it comes.” It releases on July 20th, so everyone can mark the calendars right after San Diego Comic Con.
WEST HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA - MAY 22: (L-R) Tom Hiddleston, Natalie Holt, Kate Herron, and Michael Waldron attend the LOKI FYC Event at the Silver Screen Theatre at the Pacific Design Center in Los Angeles, CA on May 22, 2022. (Photo by Alberto E. Rodriguez/Getty Images for Disney)
WEST HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA - MAY 22: (L-R) Anthony Breznican, Tom Hiddleston, Kate Herron, Michael Waldron, and Natalie Holt speak onstage during the LOKI FYC Event at the Silver Screen Theatre at the Pacific Design Center in Los Angeles, CA on May 22, 2022. (Photo by Alberto E. Rodriguez/Getty Images for Disney)
Television Academy members and Marvel fans were thrilled at today’s FYC Emmy event as actor and executive producer Tom Hiddleston took to the stage to discuss his Disney+ Action series “Loki” at the post screening Q&A. Other panelists included Kate Herron, Director and Executive Producer, Michael Waldron, Head Writer and Executive Producer and Natalie Holt, Composer. So much fun! #fycemmy2022 #disneyplus #marvelstudios #loki #tomhiddleston #televisionacademy @officialloki
