From a Q&A at Ineffable Con 2 on 17th October, 2020.
Neil:
There are definitely people out there who seem to think that I accidentally wrote a love story, with all of the beats of a love story, including a break-up halfway through, without somehow noticing that I’d written a love story. And I may not be the brightest candle on the candelabra, but as an author who’s been doing it for a long time, I’m very well aware of when I’m writing a love story, thank you very much. And so, from my perspective, I knew that the love story would be one of the driving things that would get us from the beginning to the end.
And I also made a bunch of decisions about our angels and our demons in terms of casting, in terms of gender, that everybody backed me up on, which I loved. You know, the idea that the archangel Michael is played by Doon is something that is - or Beelzebub is Anna Maxwell Martin, whatever, there’s - it’s not like we are going these are women, there are men. We are going these are demons, these are angels. They - this is not a thing. And also doing something like Pollution where you go in and go okay, well, if we were doing this in - if 1989 was now, if there were they pronouns, we probably would have done that. We didn’t think of it at the time, but that’s no reason why we can’t do it now. And we did. And I remember having a - not exactly a battle, but a - my - very tiny skirmish with one of our execs who was very nice and very bright and was like “Why are you saying they?” and I’m like (demonstrating a pause) and I - explaining, and he’s like, “Well, I’ve never heard of that before,” and I’m like “Oh, okay, but trust me. Just trust me. It’s all - it’s all fine. Just trust me.”
Douglas:
And you know I have to say, just following on from what Neil’s saying, I’ve been directing for quite a while, and I tend to notice if characters are falling in love. I tend to notice a love story happening in front of me. And I think it’s there. And everything is meant, guys. Everything is meant.
[…]
Neil:
I would just say, there are some things that you do while you’re writing a script intentionally. The fact that - I wanted to do this, well, it was a thing I did that I really enjoyed doing, where whenever people accuse them of being a couple, they don’t deny it. They don’t argue. There’s no flustering on their part. They absolutely… everybody… what I’m trying to say is - yes, other people in the story are perceiving them as a couple too. And here is Uriel perceiving them as a couple. Here is wonderful Dan… you do scenes like that because that’s - you are trying to make a point here and you’re trying to make a point on how people are perceived.
why are people still calling Good Omens queerbaiting
Some are mad that the showrunners won’t label them as gay because the characters aren’t men, just male-presenting beings; some because there wasn’t a kiss or other moment of physical intimacy of a sexual nature and an asexual romance doesn’t count as rep to them because they don’t consider aces part of the queer community; some because the two didn’t say “I love you” even though their actions are all but screaming it and the story ends at a point where clearly neither are ready to say those words out loud to the other yet.
Some people want rep that gives them things on screen that NO ONE can argue is platonic, or claim that there is a straight explanation for, and that’s completely understandable. We should have more shows that give us that.
I just wish more of them understood there’s a difference between something that didn’t give them the specific kind of representation they were hoping for, and actual queerbaiting where the possibility of a queer relationship is dangled by the showrunners / writers / subtext but never confirmed or made overt.
I know I just reblogged this literally five seconds ago, but that was before it fully sank in that holy shit Neil Gaiman explicitly mentioned they might be ace.Neil fucking Gaiman. My identity has been explicitly mentioned in connection to two of my favorite characters,byone of my favorite authors, and I’m just sitting here trying not to cry because oh my god I didn’t realize how much that would mean to me until it HAPPENED.
I. God. Thank you, Gaiman, thank you so fucking much. Best pride month ever.
Neil Gaiman said ace rights (◕ᴗ◕✿)(人 •͈ᴗ•͈)
He also explicitly mentioned that they could be aromantic, making him easily the most prolific and big-name author to ever reference aros in any way.
David Tennant and Michael Sheen at the BAFTA 2020 presenting the award for Best Mini Serie. They did it Staged style
One day, when I’m dead, someone at the Gates will ask me if I did anything to qualify for admission to Writers’ Heaven. And then I’ll list all the books I wrote, and all the good deeds I tried to do, and the worthwhile causes I supported, and they will just stare at me, unsmiling and unimpressed. And finally, in desperation I’ll say “Well, I was the first one to put David Tennant and Michael Sheen together…” And the unimpressed expression will become a huge and delighted smile. “You did that?” they will say. “God LOVES them!”
They probably still won’t let me in to Writers’ Heaven, but I will take that one thing with me as my fragment of Grace, as I trudge down the stairs to Writers’ Hell.
Douglas: Now tell us about - are you going to tell us the story about you and Terry…
Neil: Yes, I will.
Douglas: I think that’s important one.
Neil: I was gonna say our location is a Chinese restaurant we’d had turned into a sushi restaurant. So Terry and I, Terry Pratchett and I, had a standing… not even a standing joke, just a standing plan, that we were going to have sushi - there was going to be a scene in Good Omens where sushi was eaten and we were gonna be extras, we were gonna sit in the background, eating sushi while it was done. And I was so looking forward to this and, so I wrote this scene with it being sushi, even though Terry was gone, with that in mind and I thought: Oh, I’ll sit and I’ll eat lots of sushi as an extra, this will be my scene as an extra, I’ll just be in the background. And then, on the day, or a couple of days before, I realized that I couldn’t do it.
Douglas: You never told me this before either. I might have pushed you into doing it, had I known. I think you were right not to tell me.
Neil: I was keeping it to me self ‘cause I was always like: Oh, maybe I’ll be… this will be my cameo. And then I couldn’t. I was just so sad, ‘cause Terry wasn’t there. And it was probably the day that I missed Terry the most of all of the filming - it was just this one scene ‘cause it was written for Terry and all of the sushi meals we’d ever had and all of the strange way that sushi ran through Good Omens.
I have a batch of Tristan Thorn customs available! Get one now at my Etsy.
Thanks to @spasticcustoms for their help getting some pieces for these. Go give them a follow! And, of course, thank you @neil-gaiman for writing some of my favorite stories.
They have returned! It only took me six months to finish the redesign of this set.
Charlie Cox as Tristan Thorn; Claire Danes as Yvaine; Michelle Pfeiffer as Lamia; and Robert De Niro as Captain Shakespeare. All available now at my Etsy Shop.
“You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime.” The#bookoftheweek is DEATH The Deluxe Edition, by @neilhimself There is nothing about this book that can’t pass as perfect. @Chris Bachallo work is amazing as usual, and goes great with Gaiman’s words. The stories about how Death comes to earth for a day once every Century, are beautiful, and bittersweet, just like Death herself. The art gallery is huge, the covers and other art by McKean (another all time favorite) are haunting, and the last story with a little cameo of some chainsmoker bastard from Liverpool reminded me of that aftertaste only the comics of the 90’s used to have. 10/10 will Read again.
David Boreanaz played the ironically-named Angel on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel: the Series. His character has *so many* parallels with Lucifer (far more than Booth outside of the law enforcement/crime procedural connection).
Angel’s spinoff also has noir crime drama aspects mixed with the supernatural starring an immortal protagonist with a dark past and infamously villainous reputation fighting evil as a supernatural private detective in the City of Angels (a city known for its dark underbelly juxtaposed with fame and glamor, broken dreams and chasing eternal youth) and navigating human law (including the LAPD and evil lawyers) while not legally existing.
Angel also fell in love with a blonde human heroine (Buffy Summers) after lifetimes of self-destructive, not-so-heroic behaviors (getting his soul back did *not* make Angel a hero and human Liam was a lecherous drunk with unfulfilled ambitions and father issues) who inspired him to become a better man and make human connections.
AtS made heavy use of sprawling nighttime Downtown L.A. cityscape shots, which Lucifer also shared an abundance of.
During both of their first cases, they failed to save the troubled blonde girl they were trying to help (Tina and Delilah, respectively). They also have a connection inside the LAPD through a blonde cop who also takes their identity secrets pretty badly (Kate Lockley in Angel’s case).
Note that Buffy not only screamed (twice, given it repeated during her memory loss in Halloween), but also came after Angel with a crossbow when she thought he’d attacked her mother (it was Darla), so Chloe taking the Devil face reveal (Monster Reveals are iconic old horror imagery) poorly to the point of considering poisoning is par for the course. However, it only took Buffy seven episodes instead of three seasons to get the identity reveal via seeing the horrific second face (arguably also an accident on Angel’s part).
They are metaphorically or literally Hell’s angels. They also had long stays in Hell or a hell dimension.
Lucifer and Angel are also both Prodigal Sons with long-held grudges against their long-absent fathers (patricide in Liam/Angel(us)’s case) and they’re later faced with a situation where they have unexpected, thought-impossible offspring who show up as adults (neither got to raise their miracle child) wanting revenge. Yup, major Connor/Rory parallel there.
Angel is also in a constant struggle with the Powers that Be manipulating his fate and free will (like Lucifer, he’s a champion of free will no matter the cost) and making him prophecy’s bitch.
Bones famously got jokes about how Booth is Angel getting his Shanshu (made human), since the character is given constant Angel-isms like references to a dark past having killed people (Booth is also named after a historical murderer, in addition to having been a sniper), both being Catholics full of Catholic guilt (note that the Buffyverse is most accurately polytheistic, though Angel does face off against a take on the antichrist–Angel has constant biblical imagery/themes and not just because of vampire iconography), kicking down doors (just not off their entire frames–LOL), turning on a dime and threatening people up against walls, constant wink-wink references to the Buffyverse (familiar casting, references to the Hyperion Hotel, etc…), etc…
The Lucifer finale used the words “Close your eyes.” right before Lucifer is sent to Hell. This is literally the BtVS season 2 finale where Buffy kisses Angel and sends him to hell for a century with a stab to the gut (see the season 5 finale, not to mention Lucifer giving up his life for Chloe’s à la I Will Remember You).
Note that D.B. Woodside was on BtVS (playing Robin Wood, whose Slayer mother Nikki Wood was killed by Spike). Aimee Garcia was in both episodes of AtS (Birthday–she’s older than she looks!) and Bones. See her also playing a cross-wearing religious girl on Supernatural who was slaughtered in a police precinct by Lilith. Kevin Alejandro was also in an episode of Bones.
Tricia Helfer was in an episode of Supernatural playing a ghost who reenacts the night of her death every year. BtVS also had an episode along those lines, but with Buffy and Angelus possessed (not to mention Phantom Dennis!). Lucifer having Dan as a ghost is yet another thing they all have in common (ditto referencing Ghost, Patrick Swayze and/or Unchained Melody–Vincent Schiavelli a.k.a. Ghost’s subway ghost was Jenny’s uncle Enyos, whom Angelus killed).
Lucifer name-checked Castiel and Supernatural referenced Lucifer using their Lucifer (crime-fighting angel in L.A. made it a double-reference whammy). Supernatural returned the favor again by having Castiel forced to sing in Enochian. Lucifer’s reference to his singing voice was already a zing about Misha Collins having to put on that monotone gravel voice and Enochian being far from melodious.
Russell T Davies was quite heavily inspired by the Buffyverse when he revived Doctor Who and spun off Torchwood, so there are absolute tons of Buffy, Angel and Spike respectively in Rose Tyler, the 9th/10th Doctors, Captain Jack Harkness and Captain John Hart (right down to the actor). School Reunion is the episode where the Buffyverse inspiration is most on the nose, complete with Anthony Stewart Head saying “shooty dog thing” in a school setting and a Mayor/Angel-esque speech about the curse of immortality. The Time War gave the Doctor a huge genocide-level guilt complex. Note that the creator of DC comics’ version of Lucifer, Neil Gaiman, has also written for Doctor Who and is also the co-creator of Good Omens (the show is brimming with Doctor Who Easter eggs thanks to David Tennant). A barely-recognizable Tom Ellis played Martha Jones’ ex-fiancé Tom Milligan during the Year that Never Was, as well.
A lot of shows take inspiration from the Buffyverse and you’ve probably seen some of them. It isn’t just the copycat vampire romance stories either.
Angel’s forerunners in turn were a mix of guilt-stricken, rat-eating Louis de Pointe du Lac (his Jekyll/Hyde-esque alter-ego Angelus is closer to the pre-retcon, fully-evil Lestat de Lioncourt, who got woobified into an antihero rocker not unlike Spike–the entire Fanged Four mirror Anne Rice’s character lineup), sword-wielding, immortality trope-influencers Connor/Duncan MacLeod of Highlander fighting for the Prize of humanity (akin to Pinocchio becoming a “real boy”–see also Barnabas Collins of Dark Shadows, though he was before vampires became antihero superheroes, not just sympathetic antivillains) and Nick Knight of Forever Knight (vampire detective).
Additionally, Tom Welling was famously the longest-serving Clark Kent of them all (Smallville) on the old WB (there’s that DC comics connection, too), so it’s not just a Fox shows thing (though Fox, not just Warner Brothers, did indeed own the Buffyverse). One of the least-known things about Clark is that he also has an immortality problem where he wouldn’t age parallel to Lois (they wouldn’t be able to have kids either) without a workaround. The Kryptonite line directed at Cain/Pierce by Lucifer was quite on the nose! Lucifer and Smallville sort of crossed over even further in Crisis on Infinite Earths, so Tom is canonically the face of both Clark and Cain in parallel universes of the DC multiverse.
Supernatural had quite recently had their own takes on Cain (played by Timothy Omundson, who also played God Johnson) and the Mark of Cain when Lucifer did it. Dan’s killer Le Mec was, of course, Rob Benedict, who was God a.k.a. Chuck Shurley, the ultimate villain of Supernatural. Richard Speight, Jr., who was archangel Gabriel/Loki the Trickster, directed a lot of Lucifer’s later episodes in addition to being a prolific Supernatural director.
Supernatural and Lucifer use the exact same font for their titles (Supernatural Knight).
The X-Files (which Supernatural referenced constantly) and Supernatural also had stories about nephilim (see the apocryphal Book of Enoch). Lucifer ultimately had two nephilim (forbidden interspecies offspring of angels and humans), even if not saying so as a known concept. Connor can also be compared to the vampire equivalent of being something like a dhampir, though he’s not quite that (mostly-but-not-quite-human offspring of two vampires instead of a human/vampire hybrid–see Blade for an actual dhampir). Supernatural has also covered the even rarer cambion species (human/demon hybrid).
Douglas: Now tell us about - are you going to tell us the story about you and Terry…
Neil: Yes, I will.
Douglas: I think that’s important one.
Neil: I was gonna say our location is a Chinese restaurant we’d had turned into a sushi restaurant. So Terry and I, Terry Pratchett and I, had a standing… not even a standing joke, just a standing plan, that we were going to have sushi - there was going to be a scene in Good Omens where sushi was eaten and we were gonna be extras, we were gonna sit in the background, eating sushi while it was done. And I was so looking forward to this and, so I wrote this scene with it being sushi, even though Terry was gone, with that in mind and I thought: Oh, I’ll sit and I’ll eat lots of sushi as an extra, this will be my scene as an extra, I’ll just be in the background. And then, on the day, or a couple of days before, I realized that I couldn’t do it.
Douglas: You never told me this before either. I might have pushed you into doing it, had I known. I think you were right not to tell me.
Neil: I was keeping it to me self ‘cause I was always like: Oh, maybe I’ll be… this will be my cameo. And then I couldn’t. I was just so sad, ‘cause Terry wasn’t there. And it was probably the day that I missed Terry the most of all of the filming - it was just this one scene ‘cause it was written for Terry and all of the sushi meals we’d ever had and all of the strange way that sushi ran through Good Omens.
![Norse Mythology III #1 (2022)[Norse Mythology Vol. 3 #1]Art by: P. Craig Russell and Lovern Kindzier](https://64.media.tumblr.com/6f669db371ec34cd3140f581f0556403/fdce5879b3e84f79-34/s1280x1920/a064e8f43eca6b2faeba6002d3af0d01136b94c8.jpg "Norse Mythology III #1 (2022)[Norse Mythology Vol. 3 #1]Art by: P. Craig Russell and Lovern Kindzier")
