most chaotic sortings: 3 flavors

“where are you going?”

“either to get ice cream or commit a felony, we’ll decide in the car”

- lion bird

sheer unpredictability, who knows what they’re even doing

- bird snake

overall weirdness

- bird bird

wisteria-lodge:

paint-the-ravenclaw:

wisteria-lodge:

Hello, I hope you’re doing well! I’m having a lot of confusion over my secondary, so a second opinion to help me untangle things would be lovely.

I’m pretty confident I’m a Snake with a Badger model that determines what I do when my people aren’t involved. Essentially, people are always important, but my people are most important to me. When push comes to shove I will protect them first (or feel worse about myself if I fail to).

So far, so good.

I think my secondary is at least a little burnt, in part because I’ve always struggled with interacting with people and don’t tend to think of myself as someone who’s capable of making an impact in people’s lives when it matters. I can remember several situations where I didn’t reach out to someone who needed my help, especially one of mine, because I was convinced that person would never want help from me. 

That’s proper burnt secondary talk. You knew what you wanted to do, you knew what would feel good to do, but you DIDN’T do it because you didn’t think it would work.

I know better than to do that now, and I’m trying to get better at believing in my own abilities (and the fact that other people can want me around). I’m hoping it’ll help to get a better idea of what those abilities even are.

You’re unBurning. Good.

I’ve thought ever since I first discovered this sorting system that I must be an improvisational secondary. I’ve never thought of myself as a fan of plans and prepwork - I get stressed out that I’ll forget important things and be left stranded. I remember back in high school when I was getting used to using public transport, my mum went with me to do a trial run of a route I needed to travel in advance.I was stressed enough about the event I was travelling to as it was, and the trail run made it so much worse, because there was so much to remember, what if I forgot something? What eventually made me feel more comfortable about it was trusting myself to figure it out on the day.

What a gorgeous way to explain the difference between a Built (prepwork) secondary and an Improvisational secondary. Trial runs make me feel somuch better and somuch more comfortable. And I’m a built secondary (and I bet your mom is too.)

Nowadays, when I’m travelling somewhere I’m unfamiliar with I’d much rather just leave half an hour early to give myself some breathing room in case I mess up.

Perfect. Excellent improvisational secondary problem solving.

Following strict schedules just trips me up too - say I’m doing classwork for the afternoon, for example, I need the freedom to be able to say that actually I’m more in the mood for Subject B than Subject A. I like having space to improvise, and I feel really proud of myself when I pull off something on the fly!

Once for a final exam in high school, we had to write an essay for The Lord of the Flies using a set of quotes from the text we’d chosen and memorised beforehand. The essay question was only revealed in the exam, and it turned out to be asking us to write an essay about one specific character - except I didn’t have enough quotes for any one character, I’d deliberately made them very spread out. What I did instead was to argue for the symbol of the Lord of the Flies as a character, and make each paragraph about each different character’s relationship to ‘him’ and what that relationship revealed about the characters, so I could make use of my range of quotes. I’m sure my writing wouldn‘t hold up now, I’ve gotten better at writing since then, but I still think of it as one of the essays I’m proudest of.

I would have given you an A. That sounds brilliant.

So that all seems to point to an improvisational secondary, but - reading about Rapid-Fire Birds has made me question whether that’s actually what I’m doing instead, and I have no idea how to tell. What‘s the difference between an improvisational secondary using information they already have to help them improvise, and a Rapid-Fire Bird doing the same thing? To what extent can Birds dislike relying on lists and planning?

You’re an Improvisational secondary. A pretty loud improvisational secondary (and almost certainly a Snake because you value the ability to pivot quickly so highly.) Rapid-fire birds can *look* like Snakes from the outside, but it’s a totally different internal experience. A rapid-fire bird might be comfortable improvising their bus route - but only in an area that they alreadyknow super well. Rapid-fire birds look like Snakes… as long as they are operating within their area of expertise, are coming from a place of strength.

And where does looking for more information while you solve a problem, rather than beforehand, fit within the secondaries?

Feeling more comfortable and confident looking *around* you while solving a problem (versus bringing in a bag of tricks at the start) is an Improvisational secondary thing.

When I’m involved in a debate about something that relies on a piece of information - a definition of a word, a statistic, some sort of other fact - I’m known as the person who’ll pull out my phone and say ’oh! I’ll Google it!’.

This might be a Bird [model] thing, but I’m inclined to think it’s just a person thing.

(Sometimes people don’t seem to get why I do that - they’ll say it looks like I’m taking things too seriously when it’s just a silly discussion for fun? But it just makes sense to me, we need information and that information is easily in reach, why shouldn’t I go get it, silly conversation or not?)

Okay, scratch that, I actually think this is a generational thing. *Baby Boomers* get annoyed at me when I do this.

I’m the same way when I research for writing. I don‘t tend to go looking for specific resources when I don’t have a story on them planned, but I love digging into specific subjects and resources and systems to ground a story in, once I have a concept to work with and I know what could be useful. 

I love digging into complex systems in general, really (hello, sorting hat chats!). But it’s not like I do it because I think it’ll be useful later - unless I know it will be, because it’s relevant to a problem I’ve already been presented with. And I know just having nerdy interests does not a true Bird make.

I think you probably have a fun Bird model.

But if I’m not a Bird - or if it’s only a model - which improvisational secondary do I even have? I’ve always figured Lion seems more likely, because I’ve never related to the ‘silver-tongued’ skill of Snakes.

I wonder if you relate at all to the idea of single-player snake - constantly pivoting, using their environment, problem solving on the fly. I think of Scotty from Star Trek - someone I would never describe him as silver-tongued, and he’s happy being solitary. But he still problem solves the way a Snake does.

I do tend to be pretty stubborn and dig my heels in when I’m challenged, in a quiet sort of way. But the difference between charging or swerving when you head for something has always seemed hard to grasp, for me. When you’ve got something to go for, you just… go, and some obstacles can be barged through and some you can’t, so you try and then go around.

I actually think that’s a very Snake way of putting things. A Lion would say that you *can* punch though everything, given enough will power and enough time. It’s what makes their energy so intoxicating, and where a lot of their power and trustworthiness comes from. They keep at something until they fail.

(oh and also ~ I have noticed that generally, Lion secondaries make no sense to Snake secondaries and vice versa.)

I do relate more to a Lion’s interacting with everyone mostly the same - with ‘varying degrees of awkwardness’, as I think another asker phrased it - rather than creating masks for everyone on the fly. But I’m not sure anymore if that’s powerful for me or if it’s just… all I can do. This goes back to being burnt socially, I think - I feel like I‘m working with nothing at all when I talk to people.

Whatever secondary I’ve got, I don’t think I’m capable of using its ‘multiplayer’ skills very well. Or at least, I haven’t learnt to yet, and I feel like I‘ve gotten worse. Although, more than a year of not being able to talk to most people in person hasn’t helped.

Yeah, you and me both. You’re a little burned about this, which makes sorting hard. You might just be a Snake who… isn’t very social.

And as for Lions valuing authenticity… I do and I don’t? I’m not sure if that’s just because I’m a private person and I don’t like exposing all of myself and my interests and opinions, it makes me feel vulnerable.

I know it sounds crazy, but if you were a Lion, that would make you feel strong.

But I won’t lie about myself if someone asks about something I’m not willing to share, I’ll usually find something that’s still true and answers their question but’s less personal. To what extend do Lions do that? 

Generally, “I don’t owe strangers the real me” is just… not something Lions secondaries think. Sometimes they lower their intensity. But they are unusual because they feel best and strongest when they put themselves out there.

But I also think that any ‘mask’ you create is still, to a great extent, a part of you and a reflection of who you are. People talk about it like you have a ‘core’ that is completely you and then a performance you make on top is automatically ‘fake’. That doesn’t make sense to me.

That’s because you’re a Snake. If you were a Lion, you would relate more to this idea of an ideal presentational “core.”

Performances can be helpful to express yourself, in a sense. And everything you make is self-portrait.)

That is an incredibly Snake thing to say. Also, Snakes have a tendency to conceptualize their masks as “art.”

In any case - I hope this wasn‘t too long. Thank you for helping me sort through all of this!

You are very welcome. I thought this one was really interesting.

Rapid-fire Bird here, totally agree with Wisteria. That’s Snake.

I would 100% be trying to figure out the public transportation in advance–and I’d also have cash on me to call a cab as a backup.

This is going to sound weird, but if I suddenly moved to an area where there was a lot of public transportation and I was using it to get around, I’d actually start researching how bus systems work in general. How do you design a system to cover as much of a sprawling metropolitan area as possible? What kind of timing considerations does that entail? And then, how has my city tried to solve those problems? What lines cover which areas of the city, and how does the signage look?

Understanding that first would help me remember not just my route that day, but how to fix it if I got off on the wrong stop or something. And then, of course, it’s widely applicable; I’ll remember it when I need to take a bus somewhere else. In fact, I’m likely to remember it when solving an almost totally unrelated problem, because there’s some vaguely relevant model or design consideration in it that I can use

…most people probably wouldn’t start there, I realize! most people would probably just memorize their route and maybe download their local area maps on their phone. Some people probably wouldn’t even do that!

But for me, the first impulse trying to use something new is, “how does this work?” I might only realize later on that I’m doing way more work than I actually need to

I mean, I don’t do that for everything (some systems are exceptionally boring), but if there’s something new and intimidating or overwhelming, I’m probably going to try to understand it as a whole first. Is that much work stressful? Well, sort of; it’s the situation that’s stressful, and if the system is hard to understand then that doesn’t help. But the research itself is sort of automatic.

If I do get that understanding, though, then later–you know, the only part other people usually see?–I probably look very chill and Improvisational. It probably looks like I’m getting lucky, when I just somehow know where things are and what they’re going to do next. The pile of maps and string of 3am YouTube videos I went through beforehand tends to be less visible

While I was writing my response, I literally thought. “Hm. How would a Rapid-Fire bird figure out public transit? Maybe they would like… research public transit in general… nah, that’s crazy, no one would really do that.”

In the days before smartphones, if I needed to use public transportation I would look up the exact map I needed online, then copy it down in the little notebook I carried with me. I also asked for directions CONSTANTLY. And New Yorkers do not deserve their reputation for rudeness, everyone was was wonderful to me.

(I am aware that both of these are…. really Badger secondary problem solving methods…)

(Look, you have double Birds listed as the mad scientist Sorting for a reason…)

This delights me your intuition was right the first time lol. In fairness to you, though, I also read my post back like “…this is pretty ridiculous, do I actually do that often enough to say it’s a thing?”*

…and then I remembered my Actual experience trying to figure out how to navigate the train system in Chicago, and reading all kinds of maps and listings for lines that were nowhere near the area I was in, trying to work out how they interacted

I still managed to fall on my face there. Long story. Even the ridiculously prepared (and/or easily distracted) nerds are not infallible xD

—

*yes. yes I do. one time I started reading about how to make cold process soap and then got distracted researching how soap works on a molecular level. which sounds like the kind of thing that’d never be relevant later, but I’ve never bought the huge ripoff that is micellar cleansing water** sooo

**recipe: one squirt of castille soap, a whole bunch of water, and even more capitalism, mixed up in a bottle and sold for $7 with a label sporting the phrase “new micellar technology!” –have fun toppling Garnier!

wisteria-lodge:

Hello, I hope you’re doing well! I’m having a lot of confusion over my secondary, so a second opinion to help me untangle things would be lovely.

I’m pretty confident I’m a Snake with a Badger model that determines what I do when my people aren’t involved. Essentially, people are always important, but my people are most important to me. When push comes to shove I will protect them first (or feel worse about myself if I fail to).

So far, so good.

I think my secondary is at least a little burnt, in part because I’ve always struggled with interacting with people and don’t tend to think of myself as someone who’s capable of making an impact in people’s lives when it matters. I can remember several situations where I didn’t reach out to someone who needed my help, especially one of mine, because I was convinced that person would never want help from me. 

That’s proper burnt secondary talk. You knew what you wanted to do, you knew what would feel good to do, but you DIDN’T do it because you didn’t think it would work.

I know better than to do that now, and I’m trying to get better at believing in my own abilities (and the fact that other people can want me around). I’m hoping it’ll help to get a better idea of what those abilities even are.

You’re unBurning. Good.

I’ve thought ever since I first discovered this sorting system that I must be an improvisational secondary. I’ve never thought of myself as a fan of plans and prepwork - I get stressed out that I’ll forget important things and be left stranded. I remember back in high school when I was getting used to using public transport, my mum went with me to do a trial run of a route I needed to travel in advance.I was stressed enough about the event I was travelling to as it was, and the trail run made it so much worse, because there was so much to remember, what if I forgot something? What eventually made me feel more comfortable about it was trusting myself to figure it out on the day.

What a gorgeous way to explain the difference between a Built (prepwork) secondary and an Improvisational secondary. Trial runs make me feel somuch better and somuch more comfortable. And I’m a built secondary (and I bet your mom is too.)

Nowadays, when I’m travelling somewhere I’m unfamiliar with I’d much rather just leave half an hour early to give myself some breathing room in case I mess up.

Perfect. Excellent improvisational secondary problem solving.

Following strict schedules just trips me up too - say I’m doing classwork for the afternoon, for example, I need the freedom to be able to say that actually I’m more in the mood for Subject B than Subject A. I like having space to improvise, and I feel really proud of myself when I pull off something on the fly!

Once for a final exam in high school, we had to write an essay for The Lord of the Flies using a set of quotes from the text we’d chosen and memorised beforehand. The essay question was only revealed in the exam, and it turned out to be asking us to write an essay about one specific character - except I didn’t have enough quotes for any one character, I’d deliberately made them very spread out. What I did instead was to argue for the symbol of the Lord of the Flies as a character, and make each paragraph about each different character’s relationship to ‘him’ and what that relationship revealed about the characters, so I could make use of my range of quotes. I’m sure my writing wouldn‘t hold up now, I’ve gotten better at writing since then, but I still think of it as one of the essays I’m proudest of.

I would have given you an A. That sounds brilliant.

So that all seems to point to an improvisational secondary, but - reading about Rapid-Fire Birds has made me question whether that’s actually what I’m doing instead, and I have no idea how to tell. What‘s the difference between an improvisational secondary using information they already have to help them improvise, and a Rapid-Fire Bird doing the same thing? To what extent can Birds dislike relying on lists and planning?

You’re an Improvisational secondary. A pretty loud improvisational secondary (and almost certainly a Snake because you value the ability to pivot quickly so highly.) Rapid-fire birds can *look* like Snakes from the outside, but it’s a totally different internal experience. A rapid-fire bird might be comfortable improvising their bus route - but only in an area that they alreadyknow super well. Rapid-fire birds look like Snakes… as long as they are operating within their area of expertise, are coming from a place of strength.

And where does looking for more information while you solve a problem, rather than beforehand, fit within the secondaries?

Feeling more comfortable and confident looking *around* you while solving a problem (versus bringing in a bag of tricks at the start) is an Improvisational secondary thing.

When I’m involved in a debate about something that relies on a piece of information - a definition of a word, a statistic, some sort of other fact - I’m known as the person who’ll pull out my phone and say ’oh! I’ll Google it!’.

This might be a Bird [model] thing, but I’m inclined to think it’s just a person thing.

(Sometimes people don’t seem to get why I do that - they’ll say it looks like I’m taking things too seriously when it’s just a silly discussion for fun? But it just makes sense to me, we need information and that information is easily in reach, why shouldn’t I go get it, silly conversation or not?)

Okay, scratch that, I actually think this is a generational thing. *Baby Boomers* get annoyed at me when I do this.

I’m the same way when I research for writing. I don‘t tend to go looking for specific resources when I don’t have a story on them planned, but I love digging into specific subjects and resources and systems to ground a story in, once I have a concept to work with and I know what could be useful. 

I love digging into complex systems in general, really (hello, sorting hat chats!). But it’s not like I do it because I think it’ll be useful later - unless I know it will be, because it’s relevant to a problem I’ve already been presented with. And I know just having nerdy interests does not a true Bird make.

I think you probably have a fun Bird model.

But if I’m not a Bird - or if it’s only a model - which improvisational secondary do I even have? I’ve always figured Lion seems more likely, because I’ve never related to the ‘silver-tongued’ skill of Snakes.

I wonder if you relate at all to the idea of single-player snake - constantly pivoting, using their environment, problem solving on the fly. I think of Scotty from Star Trek - someone I would never describe him as silver-tongued, and he’s happy being solitary. But he still problem solves the way a Snake does.

I do tend to be pretty stubborn and dig my heels in when I’m challenged, in a quiet sort of way. But the difference between charging or swerving when you head for something has always seemed hard to grasp, for me. When you’ve got something to go for, you just… go, and some obstacles can be barged through and some you can’t, so you try and then go around.

I actually think that’s a very Snake way of putting things. A Lion would say that you *can* punch though everything, given enough will power and enough time. It’s what makes their energy so intoxicating, and where a lot of their power and trustworthiness comes from. They keep at something until they fail.

(oh and also ~ I have noticed that generally, Lion secondaries make no sense to Snake secondaries and vice versa.)

I do relate more to a Lion’s interacting with everyone mostly the same - with ‘varying degrees of awkwardness’, as I think another asker phrased it - rather than creating masks for everyone on the fly. But I’m not sure anymore if that’s powerful for me or if it’s just… all I can do. This goes back to being burnt socially, I think - I feel like I‘m working with nothing at all when I talk to people.

Whatever secondary I’ve got, I don’t think I’m capable of using its ‘multiplayer’ skills very well. Or at least, I haven’t learnt to yet, and I feel like I‘ve gotten worse. Although, more than a year of not being able to talk to most people in person hasn’t helped.

Yeah, you and me both. You’re a little burned about this, which makes sorting hard. You might just be a Snake who… isn’t very social.

And as for Lions valuing authenticity… I do and I don’t? I’m not sure if that’s just because I’m a private person and I don’t like exposing all of myself and my interests and opinions, it makes me feel vulnerable.

I know it sounds crazy, but if you were a Lion, that would make you feel strong.

But I won’t lie about myself if someone asks about something I’m not willing to share, I’ll usually find something that’s still true and answers their question but’s less personal. To what extend do Lions do that? 

Generally, “I don’t owe strangers the real me” is just… not something Lions secondaries think. Sometimes they lower their intensity. But they are unusual because they feel best and strongest when they put themselves out there.

But I also think that any ‘mask’ you create is still, to a great extent, a part of you and a reflection of who you are. People talk about it like you have a ‘core’ that is completely you and then a performance you make on top is automatically ‘fake’. That doesn’t make sense to me.

That’s because you’re a Snake. If you were a Lion, you would relate more to this idea of an ideal presentational “core.”

Performances can be helpful to express yourself, in a sense. And everything you make is self-portrait.)

That is an incredibly Snake thing to say. Also, Snakes have a tendency to conceptualize their masks as “art.”

In any case - I hope this wasn‘t too long. Thank you for helping me sort through all of this!

You are very welcome. I thought this one was really interesting.

Rapid-fire Bird here, totally agree with Wisteria. That’s Snake.

I would 100% be trying to figure out the public transportation in advance–and I’d also have cash on me to call a cab as a backup.

This is going to sound weird, but if I suddenly moved to an area where there was a lot of public transportation and I was using it to get around, I’d actually start researching how bus systems work in general. How do you design a system to cover as much of a sprawling metropolitan area as possible? What kind of timing considerations does that entail? And then, how has my city tried to solve those problems? What lines cover which areas of the city, and how does the signage look?

Understanding that first would help me remember not just my route that day, but how to fix it if I got off on the wrong stop or something. And then, of course, it’s widely applicable; I’ll remember it when I need to take a bus somewhere else. In fact, I’m likely to remember it when solving an almost totally unrelated problem, because there’s some vaguely relevant model or design consideration in it that I can use

…most people probably wouldn’t start there, I realize! most people would probably just memorize their route and maybe download their local area maps on their phone. Some people probably wouldn’t even do that!

But for me, the first impulse trying to use something new is, “how does this work?” I might only realize later on that I’m doing way more work than I actually need to

I mean, I don’t do that for everything (some systems are exceptionally boring), but if there’s something new and intimidating or overwhelming, I’m probably going to try to understand it as a whole first. Is that much work stressful? Well, sort of; it’s the situation that’s stressful, and if the system is hard to understand then that doesn’t help. But the research itself is sort of automatic.

If I do get that understanding, though, then later–you know, the only part other people usually see?–I probably look very chill and Improvisational. It probably looks like I’m getting lucky, when I just somehow know where things are and what they’re going to do next. The pile of maps and string of 3am YouTube videos I went through beforehand tends to be less visible

Storage Bunker SnakevsRapid Fire Bird

This post is an exploration, not an explanation (yet!). I’m still feeling this distinction out and trying to form theories.

A recent recurring topic on the SHC fan Discord has been our Snake secondaries with Bird models and our rapid-fire Birds trying to figure out where the line lives between us.

My current theory is “it’s a spectrum, and you have a range you can work in which probably leans one way or the other.” I often describe very Snakey looking techniques as part of RF Bird, but I’d have a really hard time trying to use full Snake. I’d really rather know what I’m doing ahead of time and have stuff to work with, especially if the project is risky or has a time limit.

Turns out there is more overlap than we thought, though.

There’s a Snake Thing that @mooglesortsand@nounsnlies have dubbed “storage bunker Snake,” which is what you get when a Snake takes to designing contingency plans and gathering resources ahead of time for specific situations. They build an “emergency toolkit” to “beef up their improv” (words courtesy of our Snakes themselves).

Their stockpiles aren’t as extensive as Birds’, and they’re very focused on utility and applicability to a specific future situation. Birds like utility too, but we’ll also pick things up just because they’re shiny/interesting.

Honestly, to me it’s more fun if you’re using your resources and skills in a way you didn’t anticipate when you picked them up: it feels like a very clever and creative hack! But for that kind of improv, Snakes more often use themselves, rather than tools or skills, to influence a situation. They have this sense that they’re an integral part of the situation, that they’re a factor they can easily change to suit their needs, rather than an outside observer trying to work on the problem and only incidentally beingthere.

Meanwhile, I have a tendency to vanish when I shift into RF Bird problem solving mode. I drop my masks and mirroring to focus, I get very quiet, and if I’m not actively engaging with people, I’m invisible. People don’t notice that I’ve wandered off for supplies until I show up again with a handful of weird stuff and start tinkering. Then they might ask questions, and I’ll absentmindedly explain that hand sanitizer is full of isopropyl alcohol, which is a solvent, and yes I just have butcher’s twine in my bag, hang on a sec…

ThisStep 1: disengage from the problem to Think seems to be a Bird thing. We kinda have to, and it seems like Snakes don’t. Once a Bird has a first attempt at a solution in place, we might iterate on it and try to hack it around and make it work better, but that’s building on something we’ve already got, so we can do that faster. We need something to work from, in the same way that a Snake needs continuous input to react to.

(Thismight actually be a single-player vs multi-player secondary difference, though. Curious what our single-player Snakes have to say about this. @reds-burrow@burnt-oranges feel free to add on!)

The RF Bird way is “hoard Useful Things and hopefully you can use some combination of them to craft the solution you need when you need it.” In contrast, Nouns (Snake secondary) actually described prep work as “exploiting a loophole” for something that’s “supposed to be done in the moment.”

Snake: this feels like cheating

Bird: what? that’s just how you get things done, dw it’s not cheating

Snake: no it feels like cheating (affectionate)

…Of course, there’s also the possibility that I model Snake secondary in specific ways, which I keep coming back to and then dismissing. I need more data from other RF Birds. @magpie-of-a-birb thoughts? Which parts of this do you do?

wisteria-lodge:

wisteria-lodge:

It’s easy to simplify down Lion secondaries. You hear a lot about Lions giving inspirational speeches (which they do) being generally terrible liars (which they are) and also charging (which… yeah, they do that too). 

But I’m starting to think that might be a slightly misleading way to think about them. “Charging” implies speed, fiery hot-headedness, maybe even temper. And lions aren’t *angry* so much as they’re *committed* (or you know, stubborn). A Lion will pick a direction and just go, until they smash into a wall. They won’t pick a new plan until their old plan has obviously failed, which is what makes their improvisation look so different from the constantly adapting, constantly shifting Snake way of doing things. 

There is a very confident energy to the Lion secondary. Very “might as well happen,” “you know what, screw it, let’s do this.” They just go for it, and if they’re in over their head they just keep going. They’ll figure it out. The best way out is through, that’s a very Lion secondary philosophy. 

That’s one thing that connects Lion primaries and Lion secondaries. They pretty much have to actually be standing in a pile of rubble before they’re able to look around and go ‘… this doesn’t look right.’

There is this thing that Badger secondaries do that *looks* like charging, but isn’t really. 

If a Lion secondary is a battering ram, then a Badger secondary is a coiled spring. They’re put in this mass of prep-work, but Badger pre-work tends to be super low-key or even invisible, so it *looks* like they’ve gone zero to sixty in five seconds, but that’s not the case. 

When I moved out, I spent months quietly researching apartments, talking to people in the area I wanted to live, and putting things in order. Then when the right apartment opened up, I was moved in four days later. It sure looked like a charge to my Lion secondary sister, but it absolutely was not. 

I’ve probably reblogged this before, but I’ve just found it again and it’s relevant to a recent post, and also:

#maybe this is a built secondary thing #maybe bird secondaries do this as well

which is really funny because I read this post thinking: oh hey, it’s the Badger/Lion equivalent of when a rapid-fire Bird sec draws from our huge stockpile of resources and background knowledge and suddenly we look like a Snake for twenty minutes xD

Hang on, lemme write a post.

Just realized submissions got switched off somehow. This was unintentional, or (knowing Tumblr) possibly a glitch–they’re back on now!

If your ask is longer than a paragraph or two then it’s better off as a submission ^^ makes the formatting easier!

Bird? Bird. Bird Bird.

Hey there. I’ve been going in circles about my sorting since I discovered the SHC system and would appreciate your help in figuring it out. Although I’m convinced I’m at least some sort of Badger and Bird combo, possibly with some Lion in there somewhere, I’ll let you decide based on the word vomit below.

Nonny, I have no idea how Tumblr is going to format an ask this long when I post it, so in the interest of letting people actually read the words you’ve put effort into (and making sure my reply is also trackable), I’m copypasting this so it’ll behave more like a submission. Yours is a recent ask I think, so hopefully you see it! I’ll briefly post the original once this is up, so you get the ping.

As a kid, my family called me a walking encyclopedia. I spent a lot of my time burying my head in books and magazines in an effort to understand the world around me rather than engaging with people. National Geographic, atlases, and the Magic Treehouse series were particular favorites of mine, but sometimes I would sprinkle in some fantasy novels here and there when I felt like reading something more creative and fun.

Nice, this is a whole lot of Birdsec up front. Wonder why you need me to confirm this for you.

Along with a genuine curiosity about history and science, I felt a sense of security in gathering knowledge and would let it guide my decisions (What a fucking nerd, am I rIGHT?)

Shoosh, you are perfectly cool.

Also, I would constantly correct everyone and anyone if I felt they didn’t understand something or were completely uninformed, even if butting into that conversation was rude (then again, it could also be that I was too young to understand that there was a time and place for speaking).

Probably. Can I take a guess here that you were an asynchronous development (aka “gifted”) kid? Maybe even twice exceptional (“gifted” and also neurodivergent)? I don’t have that info obviously, I’m just guessing.

@wisteria-lodgejust came out with a great post about “gifted” kids (and why that term is garbage).

A lot of twice exceptional kids get “missed” with diagnosis (hi!) and don’t know there’s a name and a reason for the struggles they have to deal with, especially social struggles. I can’t diagnose you, of course, but that might be something to read up on if you haven’t already.

(Good places to start are @adultingautistic and @adhd-alien on tumblr, or the YouTube channel HowToADHD. Be very wary of any source that’s targeted almost completely towards parents of autistic or ADHDer kids, or anything that feels infantilizing in general. ND folks are just different, not broken or oversensitive or immature. If a source doesn’t seem to know that, you know they have at least one huge piece of bad info. Their other stuff probably isn’t better.)

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program.

It felt wrong to let them have an incomplete picture.

Ooh, an Idealist primary. Probably Bird. Could still be Lion?

I was very outspoken about what I thought was right and wrong, and why, which was usually some fun fact I had read in a book or heard through someone else.

Yeah, no, that’s Bird.

Even when I would play basketball, I would play better if I understood the theoretical and technicalities of the game and how to work within the rules. I had to understand the why before I could even begin to execute. In a realm where physicality was seemingly more important, I still managed to find a playing and learning style that allowed me to stay in my head.

You are a loud Birdsec, and I suspect the reason you’re piling up all this evidence for me is that you also have moreunwarranted insecurity about it than the Shaq-A-Roni (not sponsored) has cheap greasy salami.

TLDR; I was an arrogant shit as a kid, lmao.

Bullshit.

I mean, maybe you acted that way. But I don’t think you’re seeing the whole picture.

Some kids have the bad luck to grow up interacting with adults like this…

Adult: you are Smart, and therefore worthy of Positive Attention.

Kid: ok I will work very hard at being Smart, because I value your opinion and want Positive Attention.

(later)

Kid: can I have the Positive Attention? I am very Smart. look at this Smart thing I did

Adult: bad! arrogant! only We may bestow the label of Smart, and declare worthiness of Attention, when it is convenient to Us!

Kid: but I did the same thing…

Adult: yes but now it’s annoying. you should know this, you’re Smart.

Of course, there is some reasoning to adults’ wanting kids to learn social norms about modesty. But generally they don’t explain this well, and the kids who continue to act “arrogant” are at least a little bit attention starved.

Kids wanting attention isn’t a bad thing. It’s a totally normal and natural need. It’s not selfish of them to want feedback and praise; that’s just a human thing, and kids need it for development. Kids who get called arrogant are mostly just following the rules adults have set for their interactions.

You can call an adult arrogant, but an adult has the ability to choose not to interact that way. They can opt out of the entire premise that intelligence is what makes them worthy, and they have a lot more freedom to set boundaries. Kids’ choices are much more constrained, and they don’t always realize they have a choice when they do, because their freedom and autonomy is always growing and it takes time to figure out how to use that. (Also because they don’t always have the freedom and safety they should.)

So if you grew up in an environment like this, even if that interaction above was… more subtle, you shouldn’t blame yourself for the coping mechanism you picked up–even if it feels bad or shameful to look back on, or you want to act differently now. Feeling shame is also normal, it’s just not very productive. Once more I’ll point at the works of Brené Brown–you can probably find her books in the library.

Since you’re a Birdsec, I wonder if you ever had a “Trying To Impress You” Actor Bird mask. I definitely did, and it became so automatic that it took me ages to realize that it was there and I could take it off. Then I discovered how much energy that thing had been taking to maintain. Yikes.

This garbage isn’t limited to one Sorting, btw. The school system and societal expectations fling it at all of us.

Being self-deprecating, and calling yourself nerdy, arrogant, or other labels like that can stem the accusations of arrogance, but it’s not the healthiest way to talk to or about yourself. You don’t need to put yourself down. You don’t need to impress anyone. You’re worthy whether you impress people or not.

Be kind to your child-self, is what I’m saying. It’s hard, but remember they’re a kid, and they’re still part of you. Have compassion for them.

During my high school years, I developed social anxiety which also led to depression. Through a lot of therapy and some friends that I would use as a sounding board, it became apparent that the main trigger for my anxiety was concern with doing the right thing in dealing with people (as well as the usual fear of judgment and suffocating feeling of being around large crowds).

Yeah, primary anxiety. Not fun. Also, maybe,,, RSD? Again, not here to diagnose you with anything, just something to read up on.

My thinking was very big picture, too much at times, and I was so worried about considering every single variable and possibility that analysis paralysis became a common frustration for me.

Do I have some sort of bias that’s affecting how I treat this person? Why does this work for me but not for this other person? Am I being ignorant by choosing this? Am I really getting to the bottom of this issue or did I make a wrong turn somewhere and now have completely lost sight of it?

Textbook Exploded Bird. Hugs, that’s tough.

It looked a lot like caring about what other people thought of me, but really I was concerned with how my thinking and opinions could be negatively affecting those around me.

I wonder who this voice is, cutting you down. The implication that you’re obsessed with your own image, how people see you, is a common thread between this and the “arrogance” thing you’re worried about. Does that accusation really come from you? Or was it something someone else told you?

You’re not just self-conscious. Someone has taught you to be self-conscious about being self-conscious. And look, maybe they meant well or whatever, but this isn’t helping you.

(Also, this anxious self-examination? It’s a stressed-out Birdpri habit. Your Sorting is the easiest part of this ask to answer.)

Hurting someone else was the result of a flaw in my system. The way that I treated people was a direct reflection of who I was and my goodness as a person; if I made a wrong decision and hurt somebody, then I was a monster.

You and the Bird from my last ask. (Unless you’re the same person, lol.) Go read that post here.

And, being somewhat young at the time, I made wrong decisions constantly.

Well, yeah. Everyone does.

I would constantly ask friends, “Should I have done X instead?” in order to gain perspective on every single tiny detail of a social situation. It got so bad that I was extremely burnt out by the middle of my sophomore year and struggled with basic social interactions. I was paralyzed. (Is this what Burning is like? Not totally sure. Maybe just Undecided?)

It’s more Explodey, but could be charred too. Again, see that linked post.

Over the years, I had to learn how to not constantly analyze myself and my motivations because it was heavily affecting my quality of life. I have since gotten better, but still do fall into the trap of over-psychoanalyzing myself from time to time, much to my friends’ dismay.

Hey, recovery! We love to see it ❤

Even if it’s not perfect, this is still really important for you. You’re working to move past the struggles you’ve had to deal with. Congrats! ✨

One pattern that I have noticed over the course of my life is that people trust me more quickly than they trust other people, hence the mediator reputation. I think there is a part of that that was related to my social status and the fact that I wouldn’t have anyone to tell, nonetheless being able to help others helped me develop a lot of confidence and decent interpersonal/communication skills.

Did you pick up a Badgersec model/performance/Actor Bird mask as your default social mode? It’s possible, and if so, same :p

I have had people who have told me about their mental illnesses, childhood trauma, secret hate for their s/o or family member, etc within a week of knowing them. (For a while it got to the point of me being a bit of an enabler of toxic behaviors, which I’ve corrected since then) Most of them are lucky that I’m nice enough to keep their secrets, lol.

I get this too–outside the blog, I mean, and completely unprompted. It’s kind of strange when it just… happens to you!

That’s an experience connected with Badger secondaries and Badgersec models.

I did have one incident recently that involved one person in my friend group crossing of boundaries so blatantly and harmfully and constant gaslighting that I confided in a few friends about how I’d been mistreated and what this person had told me about themselves as reasons that I thought they were a terrible person, and within a few days that person was out of the group.

I didn’t need to lie, I didn’t need to exaggerate the truth, and I didn’t even need to do much else other than tell these few friends about the red flags, and they still took my side. It felt horrible at the time, and still does as I retell it, and I constantly ask myself how I let this person lie to and confuse me for so long without realizing it.

Well done, asking for support when you needed it! Aside from protecting yourself (a worthy and important cause), you protected your friends from this person potentially doing the same thing to them.

Also, you have good friends. And probably a Badgersec model.

Don’t blame yourself for not defending yourself earlier, either. It takes time and experience to learn how to set boundaries and figure out when someone is acting in bad faith.

In the least rude way possible, I have to ask: do you have access to therapy? You need some self-compassion, you’re way too hard on yourself. That’s not a judgment on you; a lot of the advice I’m offering, I gathered from personal experience.

(Hopefully I’m not just projecting. I have to make a lot of guesses in these posts.)

I’m sorry for the lengthy ask, but hopefully there was some helpful information somewhere within that whole shpeel.

I think you already knew you were a double Bird, underneath all the self-doubt. You just needed someone to tell you that you’re a good enough double Bird.

It’s okay. You are. You belong, I promise.

- Paint