States in dark red still have laws on the books that make “sodomy” (oral and anal sex*) illegal; states in red only have laws against same-sex sodomy. These laws are unenforceable due to Lawrence v. Texas(2003), but would go into effect if the ruling were to be overturned. And yes, you read that correctly, 2003!
* Laws in Michigan and South Carolina ban only anal sex, not oral.
It’s not even just that blowjobs were illegal: a lot of sex negative radfem discourse is predicated on the idea that things like blowjobs (or anal sex, or penetrative sex at all, the goalposts keep moving) are inherently degrading and violent. When they say “foul, dangerous shit,” they don’t mean something like scat play, they mean “literally any sex.”
Like, just to illustrate my point, here are some screengrabs from the notes of that post about the guy who went to the hospital because he accidentally ruptured something during a blowjob.
To be clear: at no point was it either said or implied in the original post that the guy was having rough sex, that he was kinky, or literally ANYTHING ELSE other than that he was giving a blowjob. And here come the radfems saying that sex with any man is inherently violent and dangerous. And when someone calls them out on their homophobia, this is their response:
notice how it goes from “how can you say that our concern for this guy in the hospital is homophobic” to “you don’t need to go to the hospital for it to be violent and yes, actually, we ARE saying that any sex with men, including gay men having consensual sex with each other, is inherently violent.”
It’s not just whatever you’re picturing when you think of extremely kinky sex that they consider “foul and dangerous” - they’re defining that to include any sex acts they personally don’t like.
And also? This is why queer people and kinky people have a lot of overlap when it comes to their rights. The laws that criminalize “indecency” and other “damaging” sexual behavior always impact queer people the most, whether that’s a side effect or by design.
I have a post somewhere on my blog talking about a similar radfem post that’s like “bdsm is normalizing extreme violence during sex!” giving a similar story of sex related injury as evidence, where I pointed out that hundreds of people every year are seriously injured or killed slipping and falling in the shower…
ergo, it’s a near certainty that shower sex injures many more people than consensual sexual practices radfems get pearl clutchy about.
The takeaway is that accidental injury during…virtually all physical activities…is really, really common, and it’s super intellectually dishonest to attribute instances of sex-related injuries to Male Violence when literally anything that includes moving your body near another person’s body sends hundreds of people to the ER every year.
It’s just a deranged metric across the board. Plenty of people gladly engage in activities with others that have risk of injury! Hiking, virtually all competitive sports, rock climbing, moshing, etc. I think it speaks to how fucking detached these people (and to a lesser extent everyone in this increasingly alienated time) are from just… Incredibly normal aspects of how humans relate and interact. Like almost everything that isn’t totally passive between people holds -some- chance of being hurt. It’s part of being a person lol.
anti-map pro-shippers confuse the hell out of me. “I am against people who are attracted to minors but I’m ok with and support them and others creating content geared toward them that they can use to fuel their fantasies and groom children, and I’m also ok with and support a safe space for them to use and create this content and interact with survivors in an unhealthy way.”
Like you dislike the pedophiles but you don’t care about survivors?? I’ve literally seen a map say they get off to simulated cp and that’s just ok with pro-shippers????? Astonishing. Your hatred of maps and support of survivors is so performative and fake it honestly makes me sick to my stomach
MAPS are disgusting people who are attracted to irl children and cannot distinguish reality from fiction (or refuse to). Shipping is all about safely enjoying things in fiction without bringing it to light.
Grooming is not cut and dry. I was groomed with candy and porn of adults, when I was a young child. Never was I shown a ship and told that it could be me and my abuser. Same for when I was older - I was groomed into thinking I was older than I was, that they would satisfy all my needs; don’t worry, I’m mentally a adult, so it’s okay. Now I understand my experience is not the same as everyone else’s, but we need to at least get clear the definition of grooming and make sure we understand it isn’t all just one method.
Maps Are Not Welcome in any pro shipping community. Some of us may not go to MAP discourse because we are also survivors, and it makes us uncomfortable. That is okay. You cannot force us to debate with MAPS or throw huge crusades when we are triggered by their actions. There have also been many instances where actual rapists have been part of the anti community. You know - like Ollie. There are bad people on both sides.
I will personally not debate the ethics of stimulated child cp because that is very sickening and triggering and I Can Not do it. I will also not be stating my opinion. Please do not assume.
You can have whatever opinions you want on ships and shippers, but in the future, please do not cross tag. Thank you.
I understand that grooming can be many things but my point still stands that MAPs, as well as any abusers, can interact with minor pro-shippers through the community and groom them. I know not every survivor is groomed that way but I’ve talked to ones who were, and it’s still a huge problem and disgusting.
I don’t expect anyone to debate with MAPs, and I really hate seeing minors putting themselves in danger by interacting with them in any way. But the pro-shipping community is a safe space for them and their fantasies no matter what any pro-shipper says, I’ve literally seen MAPs say they use sim cp (any art or writing of a minor, fictional or not) and I’ve never seen a pro-shipper do anything to combat that. Although I’m not sure why you brought this up because I said nothing about debating with and interacting with MAPs in my original post?
Comparing bad people on both sides is apples to oranges. The pro-shipping community is literally full of content for abusers and by abusers, and so of course it attracts them, and it’s a problem with the community itself and rests on all of your shoulders. I don’t know who Ollie is but their actions alone have nothing to do with the anti community, the community is based on being against that content, and so their actions rest only on their shoulders.
If you make content about abuse you’re going to draw in abusers and that’s that. Even if they’re not welcome they’ll be in the notes of the posts or on anons or hide their identities, but the fact of the matter is the existence of the whole community puts minors inside and outside of it at risk, as well as enabling abusers, legitimizing their feelings and fantasies and glorifying/normalizing abuse.
I’ve never met a pro-shipper who I thought genuinely cared about survivors. I’ve only seen pro-shippers care about ones that use abusive fiction to cope. I’m sorry to say there’s a lot more, and they’re not ok with seeing that fiction and knowing it’s out there.
There are other problems with the community I won’t get into here because they’re not relevant but if you want me to I will, just know this isn’t my only problem with the community. Also sorry about the cross tagging, there’s so much pro-shipper stuff in the anti tag, I was told they were both just for debate. I’ll delete the tag
Grooming also has happened in the anti shipping community. Many people report antis acting as “fandom moms” and lying about their age to have people call them ‘mommy’, get close to them, etc. In a age where everything is pedophilia now, you have to act like one of the good guys to get to children. Shippers are quick to kick anyone who may defend this stuff in real life, so this wouldn’t be a good idea to groom them.
I think I may have worded this a little wrong. You were talking about pro shippers speaking out and defending what shipping really is and taking a stand against maps, yes? That was what I meant by debating, since most users think that’s what it means. I understand I misread that; but please note that many shippers put down that they don’t support maps and actively discourage them from following their blogs. Also, simulated child porn is just that - child porn. Porn usually has no plot and is simply explicit imagery. (Like, have you seen people ship porn stars together, create legit fanart and fanfiction of porn stars, and have specific “fandoms” dedicated to making safe content as well?). A ship may have NSFW fanart and content, but a ship is not inherently sexual. That is the difference here.
The argument of that “it’s apples to oranges” also doesn’t apply. Let’s say someone really gets turned on by murder. What do they have to do? Buy a murder video game. What if someone really gets turned on by the “pure” ships people seem to love? They can go to the antis side. We do not have nearly the same amount of abusers here. Remember Kan? They were a minor sending pictures of their breasts in a server, lying and manipulating others, pining after trans men even though she was a lesbian, and being…very, very, unorthodox. She’s an anti. Full blown anti now. Ollie hates abusive ships as much as everyone in the anti fanatic, and has catfished many others (you know, besides the rape). Antis repeatedly tell people to kill themselves, to die, get raped, misgender others, suggest that shippers enjoyed their abuse, doxx them, threaten VA’s kids and spouses, and literally threaten to break the hands and wrists of showrunners. Say what you want about us having “abusers”, but at least we aren’t built on that.
Many TV shows have abuse in them. Games, anime…they all do. In Detroit Becomes Human, Kara protects Alice from a abusive father. There are many bad endings. Boom, abuse! Does that mean that all MAPS must now lurk in notes and play the game and join the fandom solely because in game content? If you use that logic, it’s more likely they’re on the side of the suicide baiting. What really enables abusers is calling everything abuse and pedophilia is when people are actually pedophiles - no one believes them. (“Is this someone actively hunting down children? Or is this just a ship in fiction they like? I won’t reblog it.”) Or, at worse, (“Since everything is pedophilia nowadays, I don’t care, I’ll do it. Who will believe them anyways? They’re just crying out wolf.”) And guess who used that tactic? My molester.
I care about survivors because I am one. I also care about the non survivors who just ship and let ship. There is a difference between pro shippers and antiantis. Pro ships mean every ship is valid and okay, even if they don’t like it. Antiantis follow some of that rhetoric, but may attack others for their shippings they personally don’t like - like some shieths attacking shallura shippers because Shiro was confirmed to like men, even though showrunners said Shiro could be left up for interpretation.
Thank you so much, by the way, for being civil during this debate. I know it’s small, but it’s been a while where someone has been respectful. Thank you for deleting the tag as well! Usually pro-shipping and anti anti are used just for positivity. If you want to debate, go to tags that have ‘discourse’ in them. Shipping discourse, anti discourse, anti anti discourse, fujioshi discourse, etc. I don’t condone pro shipping tags in the anti tags either, I don’t go on that side but if I see it somehow, I’ll let the users know. Thank you again.
I don’t have much to add here, since arielas touched on most of what I would’ve said.
However, it’s incorrect to think pro-shippers only care about a certain kind of survivor. Yes, we go to bat harder for cope shippers, because there’s been a number of us who have been there. If there has ever been a pro-shipping blog who has dare said an anti’s trauma is invalid because of their unrelated behaviour online here, by all means please point them out to me so as I can block them and never repost from them again, because that is abhorrent. Period.
I can only speak for what I personally witness, which is a far greater number of antis who have told people they must have enjoyed being raped as children because of what they ship. I’ve had Jewish and black Reylo fans be told they self hate for not viewing Kylo Ren as worse than Hitler. One deactivated blog had a mod who survived a school shooting, where a Reylo anti proceeded to liken their support of the ship to enabling the gun culture in the States. People have called Bex Taylor Klaus a “fake dyke” for not being a punching bag back before they came out as nb trans.
In fact, the reason I created this blog wasn’t so much to have a go at antis as much as it was to protect friends of mine who got triggered by such discussion. I’m not entirely familiar with America’s church culture, but I had at least two tell me anti rhetoric is nearly identical to that cultlike rubbish they were indoctrinated with as children.
Believe me, I care about all victims.
Plus, I used to be an “anti” myself of sorts. Ten years ago, fanfic snark was en Vogue and I latched onto bullying as a way to “correct” bad writers. And unlike the lot of antis–many of who I believe are sincere in wanting to affect change in the media and their entertainment–i was just being a tosser for sport and approval of those around me. Not unlike that Gesuko lass a few posts below whose apology I reblogged. It honestly took me coming to Tumblr and seeing Voltron fandom to truly absorb how godawful my own behaviour was.
It was pro-shipping blogs that showed me how cope writing was helpful to so many people–not even for shipping, but in general. And I felt truly shitty for the shite I used to do as a teen myself in the name of “purity.” And I didn’t even have abuse as an excuse.
I came up outside of “normal” fan culture. I’m just learning a lot of it myself. If I can do anything to foster a healthier fan culture than what I got introduced to myself, I will do so. I have tags on fandom history so as to educate people for why AO3 exists (which, contrary to popular belief, wasn’t to store child porn but in part to protect of the Christian groups attacking slash writers). Because if we don’t learn from the past, we’re doomed to repeat it.
This went on way longer than I expected, but I appreciate your civility as well. It’s refreshing to come by on this bloody hellsite, no matter the topic ❤️
(ps:@principal-skinner I also tagged this for “fandom history” and “the Ollie incident” so you can read up on some of this stuff. Especially the latter who still goes by @/imfuk-d and has moved on to targeting trans boys the last time anyone reported on that bloke. )
I really appreciate like this WHOLE conversation. As much as it hurts seeing that someone doesn’t think any proshippers care about survivors, that’s important knowledge to have of how antis feel if we’re going to have any hope of continuing to have genuine discussions like this. (Or at least self-identified antis that haven’t gone off the deep end and merely have criticism to give. Harassers, you’re dead to me. Fix yourselves or shut up. ❤️)
I also think it’s important for us to acknowledge and combat the problems with our own communities, though that’s not to say that I don’t think proshippers are doing their part. I just don’t really know yet because I haven’t directly encountered an abusive/predatory proshipper yet in my very limited time in this discourse. (Unless you count that one Antoons fan who’s “okay with proship and loli” on Twitter )
“Pro ships mean every ship is valid and okay, even if they don’t like it. Antiantis follow some of that rhetoric, but may attack others for their shippings they personally don’t like”
I didn’t realize that was a distinction people made between proshippers and anti-antis! It’s interesting to me because I think every one of our terms hold unique connotations even if we use them interchangeably. But ah, that’s a whole other tangent hehe.
Anyways I think the biggest issue I have with the general “anti” stance is the idea that portrayal = endorsement, or like, that the existence of dark art and kinks inherently normalizes and encourages irl abuse/incest/pedophilia/etc. I think there’s a very legit conversation to be had about how some mainstream attitudes towards certain behaviors in fiction can affect people, but art is very often just an escape or a joy. Kinks are very often a way of helping our minds coexist with the things that hurt and scare us most. It’s nothing close to building some big arsenal of predator tools, especially since literally anything can be a tool for predators and I’m not aware of any one type of thing that is used WAY more often than other things? If those kinds of stats exist, I’d be very interested in them (like genuinely, not saying that to be sassy).
I’ve not posted much on this account lately but I do believe that distinction happened around the time “pro-shipper” was replacing “Anti-anti” in fandom parlance. From what I recall, “Pro-ship” became used as a counter against antis claiming we were pro-paedophilia (for all the good it’s done since they still insist we are, but I digress) and an easy way to communicate that all this fighting was over fiction, not real children.
