#svoboda
Pay attention when people move the goalposts. First, Ukraine is full of Nazis. Then suddenly all war is bad. Then suddenly sending financial aid to a country at war is bad. Notice how the initial claim is just gone now? If you get debunked on your biggest fucking claim in a debate, you better take a step back and think about it.
@stilldickslappinthestate get a load of this guy, still going lol
This dude is just out here telling on himself left and right.
I’ve already addressed the weak ass “deeboonk!!!!” over the Ukraine’s problemwithNazis and in generalbeingfull of Nazis,so I’m not evengoingto bother rehashing the massive 30 year pile of evidence we have about it - but it’s VERY funny that he’s framing this as “anti war folks weren’t anti war until now, because uh uh uh uh akshually they got DEBOONKED!”
And then pretends it’s akshually just a pivot from “Ukraine is full of Nazis, it’s not our war and we shouldn’t send billions in aid and weapons to other countries because we gotta play world police”?
Now that we are talking about sending missiles and soldiers too, is he going to admit that he’s a fucking clown? Hell naw! The Ukrainians are doing super good but also need 40 burgillion dollars and tomahawk missiles and we gotta
bring democracy to Iraq
bring women’s rights to Afghanistan
find WMDs
“Save Grenada from independence”(The Nutmeg!!)
“Liberate Somalia”
“Stop Iran from making nukes”protect freedom in Ukraine!
There’s no pivot, he’s just bewildered by ideological consistency because he doesn’t understand it. Turns out that when you’re anti war on principle you’re also against arming far right Nationalist regimes who rape and murder and torture their own citizens AND you’re against sending them money and guns, WEIRD! Being firmly against American interventionism used to be something the left claimed to champion.
People like this talking about “moving the goalposts”, pfffffffffff. Fucking liberal warhawks lining up to fund neo-Nazi regimes, amazing. Running interference for far right, White supremacist nationalists to own the anti-war folks, based!
it’s this bizarre media induced panic that has people assuming that if you don’t think Putin’s invasion was just some evil imperialist plan to expand Russia and want to actually look at the history of what led up to that conflict, then it’s tantamount to endorsing his actions.
newsflash: it isn’t.
acknowledging that the US and Ukraine have dirty hands in this doesn’t mean Putin is justified in invading. he never was and nobody in the anti-war camp ever argued that he was. but if we want it to stop his aggression, then plugging our ears when we want to explain the origins of the conflict and going “la la la la Russian disinformation just send bombs and guns to the Nazis” isn’t going to help the Ukrainian people.
I don’t have a problem with you disagreeing on the history or being anti-war. Hell, I’m not exactly pro-war myself. I’m mostly concerned with the active spread of Russian misinformation. I’m cool with you guys having your own opinions. I just want it to be based on what is actually happening and not some silly “Ukraine is full of Nazis” bullshit that we know is false.
so Ukraine doesn’t have Nazis, specifically in influential circles both in Parliament and the national guard? you know that to be false?
let’s stop with word games ok. “full of nazis” is hyperbolic. as would “Ukraine has no nazis”
there are paramilitary factions subsumed into aspects of the Ukrainian defense force, including the national guard. the Svoboda party, the Sich Battalion, C14, Azov Battalion, etc have helped carry out specific things, like the coup in 2014 and the bombing of the Donbass for 8 years, with support of the US and if we want to send them arms, invariably they will end up in the militant nazi-aligned wings and their influential members.
you know that to be false?
I love the people in the notes of this post that insist the 2014 coup was just the good ol’ democratic process at work. never mind that John McCain is with the “protesters”, telling CNN “We’re here to bring about a […] transition.” don’t worry! he said “peaceful transition”!
he was there to defend peace and independence, don’t you know! John “Bomb Iran” McCain was just there to support a peaceful protest and protect the valiant interests of the Ukrainian people to protest!
I mean, he’s standing there with Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the Ukrainian nationalist Svoboda party, who went on to form the Sich battalion and C14, but that doesn’t mean anything right? just take him at his word that he’s there to support democracy and peace. he’s only one of the most notorious warmongers in history so obviously he’s telling the truth about the innocence of his intentions. He was only agitating congress to send them weapons, but it’s totally not a US puppet coup. Believe John McCain because he tells the truth.
The founder of the Svoboda party was appointed as the Secretary of Security and National Defense Committee, but no the Nazis have no influence! only one parliamentary seat, don’t you know!
it’s not some wild conspiracy that the United States funds extremist factions to carry out coups and protect its interests. they did it with the Mujahedeen in the 80s which saw the rise of Al Qaeda. they’ve done it tons of times since. did it in Ecuador. regime change has been carried out dozens of times and it’s never been good for the people living there.
and when you have C14 (which was named after the 14 words) leaders openly declaring that they were instrumental in the regime change because their willingness to escalate to violence and “perform the tasks set by the west” then the connection between US influence and the Maidan protests isn’t so wild.
what is it about C14, Azov, Sich, the bombing of the Donbass for 8 years, and John McCain’s appearance amongst the Maidan protesters in 2014 do we have so wrong?
if it’s Russian disinformation, then why were Azov’s neo-nazi ties being reported about on the Time, BBC, and NBC before 2022 came around? why did Congress ban funding to them because of their extremist ties in 2017? there’s plenty of non-western and independent sources that reported on the nazi influences in Ukraine prior to this conflict.
falling back on “that’s just what Russia says!” is not an answer. we’re not excusing Russia’s actions and never were. we’re explaining that their motives didn’t just fall from the sky. We can’t change what Russia’s doing, but we have to honest about the role of the West in all this because that’s where we’re from. they can’t use excuses that we don’t hand to them on a silver platter.
when meddling and warmongering got us into this, then it’s not inconsistent to then advocate against more meddling and warmongering. simple as.
the painting of the situation as “Russia started this all and NATO is just innocently protecting the peaceful people of eastern Europe” is what’s bullshit.
Russia did invade, but history didn’t start at that moment. Russia escalated but the seeds of the conflict were there and ignoring them helps no one. Sending arms so that Russia can be driven back only to help entrench white nationalists who enjoy torture and killing (their words) does not help the people of Ukraine.
Svoboda has 1 out of 450 seats in parliament. The Sich Battalion has around 50 members, S14 has disbanded, and the Azov Battalion is estimated to have 900-2500 members (of which only 10-20% are estimated to be Nazis). Even if we grant that all 2550 of those soldiers are full-blown Nazis, that is only 1% of their 246445 soldiers in their full military. The real percentage could be as low as 0.05%.
I don’t know why you made this huge post talking about Ukraine’s history. I guess you assumed I would reject it all? The thing is, Ukraine is in a much different position than we are in the west. You would expect to have a much more nationalistic mindset in a nation that is constantly struggling against a much larger nation that has pretty clear intent to annex your country.
If your point was that they have Nazis or that their recent history has a lot more ultra-nationalism than you’d expect, there are two problems with that. One being the situation I described in the previous paragraph, the other being that… actually, their levels of far right support are probably less than what I’d expect for a nation in their extreme circumstances.
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