You’re enablers, but apparently the way Thranduil was BUTCHERED fills me with such seething rage that I can’t contain myself once I start thinking about it. For real, they slandered him so badly I’m half convinced the movies are dwarven propaganda.
Okay so right here is a very short but AMAZING exploration of Thranduil’s character in the book, which I did not write but that profoundly impacted little kid me, and probably contributed to me loving analysis so much.
In a few words: book Thranduil is KIND, COMPASSIONATE, and WISE. And how do we know that? Because Bilbo likes him after spending weeks going around his halls. Because, and I quote:
He had taken his stand on Ravenhill among the Elves-partly because there was more chance of escape from that point, and partly (with the more Tookish part of his mind) because if he was going to be in a last desperate stand, he preferred on the whole to defend the Elvenking.
Because Thranduil is the one who makes Bilbo an Elf-friend. (Which isn’t in the movies. They stretched ONE book over like NINE HOURS and they couldn’t fit in that one scene??)
Because Thranduil’s people are having parties and singing songs despite the growing shadow, and they’re wearing gemstones, meaning Thranduil shares his wealth with his people.
“Farewell! O Elvenking!” said Gandalf. “Merry be the greenwood, while the world is yet young! And merry be all your folk!” “Farewell! O Gandalf!” said the king. “May you ever appear where you are most needed and least expected! The oftener you appear in my halls the better shall I be pleased!” “I beg of you,” said Bilbo stammering and standing on one foot, “to accept this gift!” and he brought out a necklace of silver and pearls that Dain had given him at their parting. “In what way have I earned such a gift, O hobbit?” said the king. “Well, er, I thought, don’t you know,” said Bilbo rather confused, “that, er, some little return should be made for your, er, hospitality. I mean even a burglar has his feelings. I have drunk much of your wine and eaten much of your bread.” “I will take your gift, O Bilbo the Magnificent!” said the king gravely. “And I name you elf-friend and blessed. May your shadow never grow less (or stealing would be too easy)! Farewell!” Then the elves turned towards the Forest, and Bilbo started on his long road home.
Like, he’s so nice, and honestly funny, and he’s such good friends with Gandalf??
Just…
The Elvenking had received news from his own messengers and from the birds that loved his folk, and already knew much of what had happened. (…) “That will be the last we shall hear of Thorin Oakenshield, I fear,” said the king. “He would have done better to have remained my guest. It is an ill wind, all the same,” he added, “that blows no one any good.” For he too had not forgotten the legend of the wealth of Thror. So it was that Bard’s messengers found him now marching with many spearmen and bowmen; and crows were gathered thick, above him, for they thought that war was awakening again, such as had not been in those parts for a long age. But the king, when he received the prayers of Bard, had pity, for he was the lord of a good and kindly people; so turning his march, which had at first been direct towards the Mountain, he hastened now down the river to the Long Lake. (…) Their welcome was good, as may be expected, and the men and their Master were ready to make any bargain for the future in return for the Elvenking’s aid. Their plans were soon made. With the women and the children, the old and the unfit, the Master remained behind; and with him were some men of crafts and many skilled elves; and they busied themselves felling trees, and collecting the timber sent down from the Forest. Then they set about raising many huts by the shore against the oncoming winter; and also under the Master’s direction they began the planning of a new town, designed more fair and large even than before, but not in the same place.
This guy is A GOOD PERSON. (I am begging you to read the meta I linked, it’s so good.) And do you know what we get in the movies????? DO YOU?!
We get Thranduil explicitlytelling Bard he didn’t come to help the humans. We get Thranduil being the one who wants to attack first, when in the book he’s the ONLY leader out of the four involved in the Battle of the Five Armies who said he wouldn’t start a war over gold.
“Fools!” laughed Bard, “to come thus beneath the Mountain’s arm! They do not understand war above ground, whatever they may know of battle in the mines. There are many of our archers and spearmen now hidden in the rocks upon their right flank. Dwarfmail may be good, but they will soon be hard put to it. Let us set on them now from both sides, before they are fully rested!” But the Elvenking said: “Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold.”
Seriously, he’d just come to assess the situation and maybe grab some treasure if the Dwarves were really dead, and then he changed course and stayed for his human buddies and only joined his forces to theirs because Thorin didn’t want to give Bard anything despite being responsible for the town’s destruction. Thranduil entered the fight to supportBard’s claim, not because hE wAntEd TeH HHwHitE gEmSSS!
Ffs.
Thranduil looking down on mortals, when he’s a nice dude who’s friends with his human neighbors, is insulting and dumb.
Thranduil being portrayed as having zero chills, when the guy canonically wears flower crowns and berry crowns, is outrageous. (“On his head was a crown of berries and red leaves, for the autumn was come again. In the spring he wore a crown of woodland flowers.”)
The movie portrayed him as some sort of First Age Noldo, when he’s not, he’s one of the Sindar, and his people are all Teleri wood-elves/silvans, Nandor- just singers and hunters doing their thing, not great craftspeople drunk on hubris and the shine of their own reflections.
Which brings me to Tauriel, and my utter contempt for the scene where he basically tells a mere captain/a ‘lowly Silvan elf’ is not good enough for his son. WHAT.
1) Tauriel does not exist in the book, and by all accounts SHE SHOULD NOT. Seriously, don’t tell me she’s a good enough character that she deserved to be added, her name is literally Forest Maiden, because that’s the amount of creativity that went into making her. She exists to fall in love with a dude she has know for three days, even though we’re never given a reason why she’s not prejudiced against dwarves like the rest of her people are. What makes her so special? How come a three day fling overrides her loyalty to the king who has provided for and protected his people for centuries? Is Kili thathot? Not by Elven standards he isn’t. You could argue that Aragorn and Beren instantly fell in love with Arwen and Luthien, but they were literally the two most beautiful persons to ever live, and there wasn’t a millennia old blood feud between their people.
2) The mere IDEA of Thranduil regarding any Elven maiden as too low in status for Legolas is BEYOND ridiculous. Elven 'nobility’ is barelya thing on account of everybody knowing each other, everybody being more or less related, Elves typically marrying for love, and the Elf 'lords’ mingling with their people constantly. Sure, Elves have leaders/lords/kings, who are a bit wealthier, and generally super skilled in one or several domains, but they don’t really seem to have social classes. There are no Elven barons and counts, and no Elven serfs. All the Galadhrim get to see their lady. You’re either one of the leaders, or you’re part of the leader’s people and more or less equal to everybody else, and that’s that. And YES, Sindar are still kinda higher than Nandor/Sylvans, but they’re close kin (and like, most of the Galadhrim are Nandor, so it’s not like they’re considered trash by any means), and Thranduil would definitely look down on Noldor wayyyyy more than on his woodland kin.
3) Tauriel is a high ranking warrior, and Elves place more value on personal achievements than on parentage to determine status. Beleg is Thingol’s #1 guy because he’s the best archer in the world, not because of birth. Also, we don’t see any court ladies, so who exactly issupposed to be good enough for Legolas?
4) Elves. marry. for love. qsdsqsdfdsqsd the IDEA that Thranduil would ever try to discourage that. I just.
5) There aren’t that many Sindarin from Doriath around anymore, and Thranduil’s subjects are Wood-elves, so it would make sense for his unnamed wife to be a wood-elf. We’re not told that the Oropher-Thranduil-Legolas Sindarin branch is related to any other big Elven family, despite the super detailed family trees, so the most plausible thing would be that Thranduil married someone from his people and not anyone related to big Elven names. So AGAIN. The IDEA. That he would think a WARRIOR MAIDEN OF HIS OWN KINGDOM WHOM HE APPARENTLY TOOK IN AS A CHILD IS BENEATH HIS SON. Is MIND-BOGGLING.
(Though I’d have some more thingsto say about Tauriel, and how shoehorning her in as the cliché 'badass gal that does everything like the dudes,’ and hinting that Legolas’ mother was the same - and it getting no raised eyebrows from anyone- kinda flies in the face of the cultures Tolkien established, and the very protective mindset of the LotR men - but this post is getting too long. ALSO! Legolas and Gimli’s friendship was significant because it was the first positive bond between an Elf - especially one from the people of Doriath - and a Dwarf in FOREVER. You don’t get to tell me that ACSHUALLY, an Elf almost got it on with a Dwarf not a century ago. Seriously, Elves going for mortal partners generally only happens with humans that either have Elven blood or Elven characteristics, or were raised by Elves, or all three! AND I also detest the hints of Galadriel/Gandalf and am ready to throws hands over them! … I’m getting so off tracks.)
So yeah, it’s just all preposterous, as is Thranduil being a complete d*ck to Thorin when in the books he’s only really pissed that the Dwarves kept making a nuisance of themselves in his kingdom and won’t tell him what they’re doing there. Thranduil DOESN’T HATE THORIN.
And Thranduil being ready to commit Kinslaying for next to no reason?? KINSLAYING?? Elf-on-Elf murder?? THE ONE THING EVERYBODY - ESPECIALLYSINDAR - DESPISES THE NOLDOR FOR DOING???? The movies had Thranduil threaten to kill one of his OWN PEOPLE for hitting a nerve (and committing treason twice, but who cares? not the writers) when by all accounts he should sooner kill HIMSELF than ever do anything like that given the history of his people?!? Wtffff.
And FINALLY,
… the fact that they made Thranduil obsessed with some random white gems, that he’d go to war over them, that his entire feud with Thorin’s family was started over them…
AND THAT THEY CUT THE SCENE WERE IT’S FINALLY EXPLAINED THAT THEY WERE HIS DEAD WIFE’S JEWELS (=> meaning that the dwarves really did steal them, like it’s hinted at in the first movie’s intro but left ambiguous).
HOW DO YOU EVEN STRIP A CHARACTER OF EVERYTHING THAT MAKES HIM WHO HE IS, RECREATE HIM AS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF EVERYTHING HE WAS, HAVE HIS CHARACTERIZATION REVOLVE AROUND SUCH A CRUCIAL PIECE OF INFORMATION, AND THEN CUT OUT THE ONE THING NOW CENTRAL TO HIM OUT OF THE BLOATED MESS OF A MOVIE THAT IS BOTFA. THE HOBBIT TRILOGY IS SO POINTLESSLY LONG AND YOU INVENTED HALF A DOZEN MAIN CHARACTERS BUT YOU COULDN’T FIT IN THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THE MAJOR PLAYER THAT YOU BUILT UP AS A BIG ANTAGONIST???
Like “yeah, we’re gonna make Thranduil a bit of an ass because of the tragic past we invented for him” - “oops, we cut out half of the tragic past thing” - “yeah, we just made Thranduil an ass.” “Oh no, he’s not just a greedy b*tch, he’s a complex character! … If you watch the interviews and the cutscenes of the extended version.”
Ugh.
(Exasperation warning for that last vid: a captain commits treasons and threatens her king for wanting to pull out of the battle that’s decimating their people. Then the king all but pisses on the Silmarillion. Uuuuugh.)
(The magic fake skin/eye is also weird.)
(These movies are a mess.) . . .
But we got elk-riding, dual-wielding Thranduil out of it all, which was pretty epic I guess?
Yet further explanation as to my grand annoyance at TH trilogy. It just felt so loveless compared to the LotR trilogy!!
My favorite arc in LotR is actually “Gandalf & Pippin’s Questions.”
The core of this relationship is that Pippin likes asking questions and Gandalf only sometimes has the leisure to answer them:
‘What are you going to do then?’ asked Pippin, undaunted by the wizard’s bristling brows.
‘Knock on the doors with your head, Peregrin Took,’ said Gandalf. ‘But if that does not shatter them, and I am allowed a little peace from foolish questions, I will seek for the opening words.’
(“Undaunted” is such a good word for Pippin re: Gandalf. He’s clearly never feared an authority figure in his life. Meanwhile, Gandalf is like “Pippin is a good kid but if someone doesn’t squelch him when necessary he’s going to do something REALLY stupid.”)
Later, the continuing saga of “Gandalf doesn’t like unnecessary questions” returns as soon as he does:
‘Then Gandalf came back to us, and he seemed relieved, almost merry. He did say he was glad to see us, then.
’"But Gandalf,“ I cried, “where have you been? And have you seen the others?’
’"Wherever I have been, I am back,” he answered in the genuine Gandalf manner. “Yes, I have seen some of the others. But news must wait.”’
Note Pippin’s tolerant familiarity with “Gandalf giving useless answers.”
After Isengard and Pippin’s first sight of the palantir, we see its influence showing itself in Pippin’s stronger and angrier irritation at Gandalf’s uncommunicative ways:
'You had the luck, Merry,’ said Pippin softly, after a long pause. 'You were riding with Gandalf.’
'Well, what of it?’
'Did you get any news, any information out of him?’
'Yes, a good deal. More than usual. (…) But you can go with him tomorrow, if you think you can get more out of him–and if he’ll let you.’
'Can I? Good! But he’s close, isn’t he? Not changed at all.’
'Oh yes, he is!’ said Merry, waking up a little (…)
'Well, if Gandalf has changed at all, then he’s closer than ever that’s all,’ Pippin argued.
We all know how that ends. Boy steals rock, boy looks into rock, boy gets his mind filleted by the Enemy, Gandalf evacuates with him to Minas Tirith.
But then! While Gandalf is quite clear that Pippin should have known better/talked to him before resorting to stealing (and he’s right, obviously), he also responds to this incident by changing his own behavior. He starts talkingmore.
'What did the men of old use [the palantiri] for?’ asked Pippin, delighted and astonished at getting answers to so many questions, and wondering how long it would last.
And he seems to make it clear that this IS in response to the palantir incident, and is him attempting to take Pippin’s desire for information more seriously.
'But I should like to know–’ Pippin began.
'Mercy!’ cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?’
'The names of all the stars, and of all living things, and the whole history of Middle-earth and Over-heaven and of the Sundering Seas,’ laughed Pippin. 'Of course! What less? But I am not in a hurry tonight. At the moment I was just wondering about the black shadow.’
(I love that Pippin laughs and says “If I have the option, I want to know everything, obviously,” partly because he’s making a joke so soon after that nightmare incident and partly because it’s the first time we see Pippin expressing a desire for real, comprehensive knowledge. Even if it’s a joke, this is also the point in the narrative where—having lost both Merry and Frodo—Pippin’s horizons start being forcibly widened, and we’re about to see him taking in an unfamiliar world by himself.)
Despite Gandalf’s “How much more do I have to say?” protest, Gandalf keeps talking and telling his passenger stories, even when Pippin’s falling asleep. <3
Pippin became drowsy again and paid little attention to Gandalf telling him of the customs of Gondor, and how the Lord of the City had beacons built on the tops of outlying hills along both borders of the great range, and maintained posts at these points where fresh horses were always in readiness to bear his errand-riders to Rohan in the North, or to Belfalas in the South.
After we get to Minas Tirith, they both have less time and less peace, but we still get a glimpse of Gandalf trying to balance Pippin’s questions with his other, weightier duties:
'There are evil days ahead. To sleep while we may!’
'But,’ said Pippin.
'But what?’ said Gandalf. 'Only one but will I allow tonight.’
(I don’t remember the exact question, but it was after they’d seen Faramir, and Pippin was disturbed by the fact that Frodo and Sam were traveling with Gollum. He wanted Gandalf to give an explanation, which Gandalf didn’t really have.)
Finally, two notes on the subject after the destruction of the Ring. Firstly, there’s this exchange when Frodo and Sam are first reunited with Merry and Pippin in their knightly armors:
'But I can see there’s more tales to tell than ours.’
'There are indeed,’ said Pippin turning toward him. 'And we’ll begin telling them, as soon as this feast is ended. In the meantime you can try Gandalf. He’s not as close as he used to be, though he laughs now more than he talks.’
And later in Minas Tirith (when Aragorn is keeping them around for his wedding, but he and Gandalf both refuse to tell them that’s why) Frodo teasingly recalls that line.
'Pippin,’ said Frodo, 'didn’t you say that Gandalf was less close than of old? He was weary of his labors then, I think. Now he is recovering.’
(Frodo, of course, also has a great deal of experience in “Gandalf not answering your questions even when he thinks he IS.”)
I don’t really have a point to this, I just love the shift in Gandalf & Pippin’s relationship over the course of the books, and I also love the change from Pippin’s sulky “if Gandalf has changed at all, then he’s closer than ever >:/” to his merry, affectionate “He’s not as close now as he used to be, though he laughs now more than he talks.”
Ok I see this argument a lot and my main confusion here is: if love wasn’t the problem and it’s just unhealthy possessiveness that’s problematic, then why do the Jedi forbid marriage?
Can’t speak for other people but to me marriage is symbolic of attachment.
By refusing that attachment or that possession, the Jedi are symbolically placing their ideals and their teachings above themselves.
There’s also the fact that the Jedi are a monastic order. It’s pretty clear that they don’t frown on the concept of marriage, but it’s not something you can do as a Jedi. A married person may be loving in a non-attached way, but as a husband/wife their first priority will (and ought to be) their spouse, rather than their Jedi duties of protecting others. There will always be one person who is more important to them than everybody else.
It’s also pretty clear that the Jedi don’t, as an order, frown on their members leaving to live different lives. The problem is never romantic love, it’s failing to choose between that love and your duty. This is one of the reasons I love Obi-Wan’s relationship with Satine so much, it exemplifies what Anakin ought to have done: either forgone romance to stay with the order (as Obi-Wan did), or left to pursue that romance. Neither choice was bad! Anakin’s mistake (one of many) was not choosing. He wanted both, to heck with his Jedi duties if they interfered, but he didn’t want to let either go, and so both suffered.
This is an elaboration of this post.gilivhan does a pretty good job of explaining things, but I noticed an error in generation two (regarding the law of independent assortment), so, as a biology major, I thought I could help with this.
I’m warning you, do not venture forth lightly. This is a verylong post.
my sister said to me that she doesn’t think Azula would’ve killed Aang if not to bring Zuko home, and that made me realize something very interesting.
Azula doesn’t have a reason to want to capture Aang.
Not anymore than the rest of the Fire Nation. She wasn’t ordered to, but she was ordered to bring Zuko (and Iroh) home. Which she does, by killing Aang and giving Zuko the credit.
And you know what’s interesting? During the main four interactions Azula has with Aang during the second season, she sends Mai and Ty Lee away. She leaves them to fight Katara and Sokka, she leaves them to chase the bison she knows doesn’t have the Avatar, she fights him solo on the Drill and she leaves them to guard a bear and an empty throne while she takes on the Avatar in the catacombs.
She separates herself from them to fight Aang four different times.
From anyone else, it could be a pride thing. But Azula has shown on multiple occasions that she does not value pride above all else. She is insanely strategic, and she’s fine with making it look like someone else is winning if it means she has the upperhand. She admits when she needs help, hence having Mai and Ty Lee in the first place and Zuko in Ba Sing Se. She even apologizes to Ty Lee that one time. Azula does not value pride over results.
She doesn’t celebrate prematurely, either— during the Drill episode, she’s practically the only one who isn’t celebrating the victory. Azula doesn’t celebrate a victory until it’s final. Whereas Iroh in his flashback, a prideful man, had been boasting about burning Ba Sing Se to the ground.
Pride. It’s the food of the wise man, but the liquor of the fool.
It’s as if Azula is trying to capture/eliminate Aang specifically just to give Zuko the credit. The lack of witnesses, the way she seems to pursue the mission as a personal one. She intends to bring Zuko back to the Fire Nation as Ozai requested, but she intends to bring him back her way and get him unbanished.
