gaypeachs:

gaypeachs:

socialjusticeichigo:

math-is-magic:

socialjusticeichigo:

So like… are women who like yaoi and gay porn or men who like yuri and lesbian porn necessarily inherently bad and fetishizing?

Or is it just that there is a respectful way to engage with and enjoy this content and there’s a gross and fetishizing way to engage with and enjoy this content?

My understanding is that yaoi and yuri are inherently already fetishistic. Like, they’re not just different words for ‘gay’/’lesbian’ they have specific connotations as to what they are and who they’re for… and who they’re not for.

Really? I didn’t realize that. Do you have any more info on that?

Yaoi basically translates into “porn without plot” and is explicitly designed for women.

Live porn becomes a tricky issue because real sex work is involved with that, and I don’t want to get into it.

But when it comes to drawn stuff, yaoi really is inherently fetishistic because its not a genre of gay content like it sometimes pretends, its explicitly porn created for women that is not only revolving around gay men, but it also designs a whole fake “gay culture” inside them that is highly homophobic and also only designed for women (seme/uke dynamics, etc.)

It also is, as it is probably mostly criticized for, so rife with rape that its beyond normalized and is romanticized and demanded within the genre. The only other contender for criticism I’ve seen is the overwhelming amount of pedophilia and incest, which is also hard not to come across. I’m well versed in yaoi manga and anime having been a fan when I was young pre-education, and I can tell you it is almost impossible to find a series that’s not about minors having sex, adults having sex with minors, relatives having sex (sometimes with one being a minor, but often both,) or rape. At the very least, the best ones you can find have rapey undertones. All the top most popular had at least one of these. (Heard of Junjou Romantica, the big popular one? Rape, inappropriate age gap/power imbalance fetishism.)

The entire framework of yaoi is built on the concept of women finding gay men’s bodies and relationships sexually appealing, and it continues on to build the standards for this trope on heterocentric and homophobic dynamics (a masculine who is the top, a feminine who is the bottom, and this extends to other parts of the relationship and their behavior, such as the bottom being the “housewife,” or the top being predatory.)

Then it continues on to be a genre about exploring and fetishizing all that is considered the most “dirty” and “taboo,” grouping “gay” along with all these things as if its a comparably shameful fetish. Because of this, its also a genre that is not only porn about gay men, but porn about gay men (or boys) being abused, almost exclusively for women’s sexual gratification.

The only real exceptions I give is for stuff written by gay men, which usually is always bara which happens to have its own culture and is almost entirely a different thing, even though it’s considered a yaoi subgenre.

The concept of gay manga as its own genre is a really nice one, and there actually are plenty of them that get grouped under “yaoi” as a big genre, but the actual reality of it is porn of (usually abused and a lot of them underaged) gay men having sex only for women audiences.

And if that doesn’t sound bad enough on its own (because some people really don’t get why that’s bad,) it also, like any other kind of media, influences behavior towards real people and has had negative effects on gay men for decades.

I should add though, I think overall the line for consuming gay content as a straight person or someone of the opposite binary gender of the gay porn they’re consuming is “do they get off because its porn, or do they get off because its gay?” And if its the latter, its fetishism.

There’s plenty of reasons to seek out gay porn over straight porn, but your reasoning does matter (as does your behavior otherwise towards mlm and wlw, and the manner in which you interact with that porn.)

Before you get frustrated, please hear me out. Of course you don’t have to read this, but I would really like to write it. It’s not going to be an attack, I won’t be mean, I just want to have a conversation. If you don’t want to, that’s okay.

I’m going to respond point-by-point, which is my usual m.o.

For clarity, I’ll treat ‘yaoi’ as it’s commonly understood - the Japanese variant of sexually explicit manga that features gay men.

But when it comes to drawn stuff, yaoi really is inherently fetishistic because its not a genre of gay content like it sometimes pretends, its explicitly porn created for women that is not only revolving around gay men, but it also designs a whole fake “gay culture” inside them that is highly homophobic and also only designed for women (seme/uke dynamics, etc.)

The nature of content isn’t strictly defined by whom it’s observed. Yaoi doesn’t pretend to be anything, it’s presented as is. Those who observe it or reject it often pretend it absolutely has to be something it isn’t. That’s not a fault of design, that’s misattribution.

The reason why seme/uke dynamics are often alienating to the observer is that they’re influenced by societal and cultural views on any type of sex within the Japanese society and culture. ‘Uke’ often implies ‘submissive bottom’, while ‘seme’ often implies ‘dominant top’. Both top/bottom/(switch) and submissive/dominant/(switch) are all terminology common in gay culture (among many more).
Further, ‘uke/seme’ aren’t inherently sexual terms, they’re only used that way to denote specific dynamics. Originally, those were sports terms, or more specifically, terms used in a martial arts environment. The ‘seme’ is the person who ‘performs a technique’, and the ‘uke’ is the person who ‘has a technique performed on them’.

It also is, as it is probably mostly criticized for, so rife with rape that its beyond normalized and is romanticized and demanded within the genre.

Once more, this is a cultural/societal issue. It is an issue. I have always found sex as it was presented in yaoi manga to be confusing. Why is one of them being so forceful? Why is there copious crying? Why does one of them persistently resist, while at the same time passionately seeking out what causes them apparent distress? I haven’t always observed such behavior in yaoi manga (and some are unquestionably well done), but I’ve come to observe it with very high frequency in Japanese straight porn of the live action variety. If we agree that the ‘uke’ in yaoi manga is a stand-in for the female observer, we also have to agree that the expectation for a (cis)woman in Japanese society is to not enjoy sex (or at least to pretend to not enjoy it).
Let me be clear: I consider that an issue, even though culture is always a subject that is difficult to criticize from an outside perspective.

The only other contender for criticism I’ve seen is the overwhelming amount of pedophilia and incest, which is also hard not to come across.

While I understand that your experience might have been different, it hasn’t been hard for me to avoid content I don’t like. The fact that content such as this exists is a result of humanity’s fascination with what’s ‘taboo’. The sheer existence of yaoi is a result of said fascination. We have to remain aware that gay content is still quite taboo in many parts of the world, and what that means for those who create it despite that challenge. If you grow up in a prejudiced environment, having a completely unprejudiced perspective is a near insurmountable hurdle. It’s unfortunate that people continue to conflate genre issues with issues that are specific to the people who are featured in works dealing with said genres.

I’m well versed in yaoi manga and anime having been a fan when I was young pre-education, and I can tell you it is almost impossible to find a series that’s not about minors having sex, adults having sex with minors, relatives having sex (sometimes with one being a minor, but often both,) or rape.

You won’t like this, but just because you read yaoi manga or watched yaoi anime in your youth doesn’t automatically mean you have sufficient understanding of the subject. Neither do I, to be completely fair, but I know a little more - and it’s information you might benefit from.

High school characters are absolutely a group frequently featured in yaoi manga, and while I understand your discomfort, there’s nothing inherently wrong with it. I realize that’s entirely different debate to be had, though. The same goes for incest, and I suppose non-consensual themes.

At the very least, the best ones you can find have rapey undertones. All the top most popular had at least one of these. (Heard of Junjou Romantica, the big popular one? Rape, inappropriate age gap/power imbalance fetishism.)

We have to collective start differentiating between ‘bad’, ‘wrong’, and ‘illegal’.
‘Junjou Romantica’ is, as far as I’m concerned, bad. But it’s not wrong, nor is it illegal. Personally, I don’t like it. I don’t like - I guess - most yaoi manga. If it’s well done, if it’s good according to my personal standards, I can enjoy it.
Have you heard of ‘Okane Ga Nai’? To me, that one’s worse than ‘Junjou Romantica’. I hated it as a teenager, while my friend was completely obsessed with it. I think it’s bad. The story is bad, and the designs are bad - but there’s some people who like it, and it’s not wrong or illegal to like it.

The entire framework of yaoi is built on the concept of women finding gay men’s bodies and relationships sexually appealing, and it continues on to build the standards for this trope on heterocentric and homophobic dynamics (a masculine who is the top, a feminine who is the bottom, and this extends to other parts of the relationship and their behavior, such as the bottom being the “housewife,” or the top being predatory.)

I think if we want to avoid stereotypes, a ‘gay man’s body’ in this instance is just a ‘(cis)man’s body’. I’m not really sure what makes a relationship sexually appealing specifically. I don’t think that’s how that works.

I’ve already gone into why yaoi is ‘heterocentric’ as you put it, so I won’t go into it again. The thing is, even among real gay men the rejection of heteronormativity is a point of contention. Some gay men want to settle down and get married, and some describe such wants and needs as ‘breeder mentality’ and reject it absolutely. I think that’s a non-issue stemming from the idea that there’s a right way to be with someone, while there isn’t. The one agreement that is a prerequisite (in real life) is consent.

Then it continues on to be a genre about exploring and fetishizing all that is considered the most “dirty” and “taboo,” grouping “gay” along with all these things as if its a comparably shameful fetish. Because of this, its also a genre that is not only porn about gay men, but porn about gay men (or boys) being abused, almost exclusively for women’s sexual gratification.

Once more, I’ve explained why that might appear to be the case. Additionally, you might want to investigate how high your standards for sexually explicit material are. Sexually explicit material, depending on the lens you view it through, might always be ‘taboo’ to someone. The grouping you speak of is done by yourself. The people featured in sexually explicit material are individuals that have a certain sexuality, the fetishes depicted aren’t inherently tied in with their sexuality. That’s not a problem of the content itself, that’s a problem of the observer.

porn about gay men (or boys) being abused, almost exclusively for women’s sexual gratification

I want to highlight this specifically, because it’s a pretty harsh accusation. The women you present in this example are a strawman. While there clearlyare women who want to see gay men abused, I really doubt those women read yaoi manga. Unless women such as members of the Westboro Baptist Church have surprising interests.

You propose that the women in your example are awareandsupportive of the abuse that occurs according to yourstandards of abuse, while conflating their agreement to view such material with an alleged endorsement of such incidents in real life. That’s pretty wild.

The only real exceptions I give is for stuff written by gay men, which usually is always bara which happens to have its own culture and is almost entirely a different thing, even though it’s considered a yaoi subgenre.

Technically, it’s a genre of its own. Not to mention there’s women who write/draw bara. Also, someinstances of that sort of material are infinitely worse than yaoi. That is why we should rather treat identity as an explanation, and not as an excuse. Then again, I don’t think either yaoi or bara as instances of fictional graphic material need excusingat all. Apparently it needs a lot of explaining, though.

To be frank, I don’t like that you treat bara as an exception, because that’s reinforcing the notion that gay men need to be presented as masculine to be valid. You’re rejecting depictions in yaoi manga as ‘fetishistic’ when it’s not, whole endorsing material that originally was, and to some extent still is. (That’s because you operate according to a misinformed understanding of what a ‘fetish’ is.)

The bara genre began in the 1950s—ADONIS was launched in 1952—with fetish magazines featuring gay art and content. Besides bara manga, also called gei komi (ゲイ コミ, “gay comics”), and illustration, a number of bara erotic games exist, as well as novels and memoirs. Bara is mostly a Japanese phenomenon, with limited western exposure through manga scanlations and online homoerotic art communities. While bara faces difficulties finding western publishers, it has been described as “the next big porn wave coming out of Japan”.^[1]

Bara can vary in visual style and plot, but typically features masculine menwithvarying degrees of muscle, body fat, and body hair, akin to bear culture(熊,kuma) in gay culture. While bara usually features hentai (adult content, sometimes violent or exploitative) and gay romanticism, it often has more realistic or autobiographical themes, as it acknowledges the varied reactions to homosexuality in modern Japan.

Western commentators sometimes refer to bara as “yaoi”, but yaoi is largely created by and for women and features idealized bishōnen who frequently conform to the heteronormative formula of the dominant and masculine seme and effeminate ukecharacters.^[2] In contrast, bara is considered a subgenre of seijin (men’s erotica) for gay males and resembles comics for men (seinen manga) rather than ones for female readers (shōjo/josei manga).

(source)

I’m presenting this information as is, even though I have huge issues with how the author seems to dismiss effeminate men as heteronormative. It’s just more binary thinking that I personally am inclined to reject.

And here’s why,

How Gay Relationships Are Blown Apart by the Misuse of ‘Heteronormative’ 

My partner Adrian and I have been together for nine monogamous years. We celebrate the fact that we’re both men, that we’ve found true love, and that we want to get married. We also hate the fact that, despite our best efforts, we still struggle with heteronormative constructs, which can be deadly to gay relationships. They are time bombs scheduled to explode at the exact moment one of the latent, stereotypical gender roles preprogrammed into our subconscious emerges. When they do, we are usually completely unprepared and lack the tools to handle them.

In 2009, Sean Slavin published an article in the journal Sexualities that explained “heternormative” this way:

Such practices as open relationships, casual sex with regular partners (fuck buddies), and alternative family structures distinct from sex, exist widely among gay men and various combinations often do provide a mix of sex, romance and relationship. The insistence that these things should exist in one relationship is heteronormative…

He adds that one of the primary problems heternormative constructs create is that:

gay men struggle to make meaning in their relationships using a heteronormative discourse. This suggests that gay men must continue the struggle to have their relationships recognized by the law and wider society, but they must seek recognition for the relationships they have, not the ones that are ideal or acceptable (e.g. gay marriage).

Gay men are increasingly embracing monogamy, marriage, and parenthood. Those are the relationships many of us have and that even more of us want.

Don’t think that being in an open relationship makes you safe. Constantly throwing gay men who want marriage and monogamy under the bus by cavalierly labeling our relationships and aspirations for love as heteronormative is counterproductive. It demonstrates a failure to acknowledge how deeply heternormative constructs and the underlying gender roles are engrained and that they pose an ongoing threat to all gay relationships.

For example, Adrian and I had to learn how to let go of the traditional roles men are expected to play in relationships. The first few years we were together, we were constantly competing with each other and had no idea why. We later discovered it was because ideas like being the “head of household” and the “king of the castle” had been so seamlessly introduced into our minds as children that we didn’t recognize them as the source of conflict between us as gay adults.

(source)

The struggle of rejecting heteronormativity is complex. You can’t throw anyone under the bus in your pursuit of happiness. The solution isn’t to declare relationships as heteronormative that follow a certain pattern and dismiss them as reinforcing stereotypes, and the solution isn’t to reject all patterns. It’s a matter of choice, rather than something that can (or ever should be) determined by external input. You can’t and shouldn’t dismiss wanting to settle down and get married as lesser, same as you can’t and shouldn’t dismiss someone who doesn’t want either as pathologically misguided and failing to represent their group well.
That is why it’s so demonstrably harmful to police sexual expression according to your own personal standards. There are very few exceptions to that.

The concept of gay manga as its own genre is a really nice one, and there actually are plenty of them that get grouped under “yaoi” as a big genre, but the actual reality of it is porn of (usually abused and a lot of them underaged) gay men having sex only for women audiences.

That’s your reality. It’d be good if you stopped confusing what you perceive as true to be the ultimate truth.

And if that doesn’t sound bad enough on its own (because some people really don’t get why that’s bad,) it also, like any other kind of media, influences behavior towards real people and has had negative effects on gay men for decades

It’d be nice to get a source for the bolded part especially. To be honest, I know that statement is mostly incorrect, but your followers and my followers might appreciate some insight.

Again,howandto what degree media influences people is a different topic entirely. It’s a topic I’m a little tired of, but it doesn’t really matter. The truth is what it is, whether I declare it or not.

I should add though, I think overall the line for consuming gay content as a straight person or someone of the opposite binary gender of the gay porn they’re consuming is “do they get off because its porn, or do they get off because its gay?” And if its the latter, its fetishism.

How do you even prove that? It’s very easy to prove someone has a fetish for feet. It’s almost impossible to prove that someone has a fetish for gay men. Gay men aren’t a static concept, feet very much are.

There’s plenty of reasons to seek out gay porn over straight porn, but your reasoning does matter (as does your behavior otherwise towards mlm and wlw, and the manner in which you interact with that porn.)

The only thing that truly matters is how you treat real people. Your idea that there’s a right way to interact with porn is incredibly invasive.

But you are right, there are plenty of reasons to seek out gay porn over straight porn, and no one is obligated to have the same reason, and no one is obligated to reveal their reasoning, and no one has to justify their reasons.

Again, you neither have to read this (I’d be happily surprised if you do), nor respond. I know some people who follow me are interested in subjects like these, so what I’ve written is for them, too.

oblivious || Damian Wayne

Hallo! I’ll get straight to it. XDD Is it fine if I would ask for some Damian Wayne x Reader. Where the reader has an alter ego but Damian doesn’t know it. Damian, as Robin, is always teasing and kinda insulting the reader but doesn’t realize that it’s the same girl he likes. And the reader is kinda chill with both of their personalities that they’d be really fcking similar XDD and they don’t even try to cover it up. But she’s smart enough not to let it through. I hope you get the idea. You can just say no tho hahaha. Anyways, have a great day!

A/N: I hope this turns out okay! Do you notice I put pictures of the boys now? Yeah, bcs I’m not writing on my tablet and yes, I always write on my tablet for most of the times :>

Have I done this title before yet?

::

“Really, Robin?” You stared at the boy wonder in front of you, he had his booted foot on top of a criminal that you both had defeated- it was mostly him because apparently, he loved to steal your spotlight- the bulky man was probably unconscious since he hadn’t moved at all, he hit his head pretty hard on the ground after all.

“You were too slow,” he bent down to tie up the guy’s wrists, then flipped him over to his back before tying up his ankles and thighs.

“I arrived here first, you ass,” you huffed, sighing in defeat. There was no point arguing with the boy, he was always like this when he was doing his hero duties or not.

Oh, of course, you knew who he was at school. Damian Wayne, the son of Bruce Wayne, one of the possible heirs. He was good looking, had quick reflexes, smart but despite all that…

He still didn’t know who you were.

You did nothing much to hide that you were, well, you.Save for the mask you wore and the suit- of course, you did nothing- you let your hair just the way it was, the way you act was just the same like how you acted in school.

He still didn’t notice.

“Too bad, too sad,” Damian- Robin- stretched his arms up, he was young but damn if his body didn’t already sculpt, you had seen it first hand too on gym class when he had to wipe the sweat off his face with his shirt. “Is this all?”

“Uh, yeah,” you looked around the building, it was empty and eerie, the sound of wind could be heard because it was just that silent save for the two of you. “Let’s get out of here, I’ve called the GCPD. They should be here right about,” you heard sirens blaring from afar, the red and blue glimpses of light accompanying the sirens, “now. Let’s go.”

The two of you grappled up, away from the polices’ eyes. Their flashlights were aimed all over to look for you and Robin but they were already too late since you two were already far from the scene, heading for a nearby fast food restaurant.

The person behind the counter wasn’t surprised to see two young vigilantes strolling into the place casually, talking like you were just regular customer- which you technically were- and ordered some food then went out again to eat on their rooftop.

“It’s not like you to be late, Robin,” you commented, chewing on your curly fries, legs rocking back and forth as you stared at the ground where civilians were passing.

“Had to finish my homework first,” he looked at you, emerald eyes narrowing behind the glasses of his domino mask, “swallow before speaking.”

You didn’t pay any heed to his words and continued speaking, although, this time your food was already swallowed, “we have homework?”

“Yeah,” he paused, “wait, what do you mean ‘we’?”

“Oh shoot, we have homework,” you crumpled the paper bag, tucking it into your pocket- had to give a good example as a good vigilante- and grinned at him as you stood to leave, “do you seriously haven’t noticed who I am, Dami?” You snickered.

You watched as everything seemed to process in his head and when you knew the obvious realization washed over him you left without a goodbye but laughed loudly into the night. The poor boy was left there alone, mortified.

“Shi–” his mother’s voice echoed in his earpiece, daring him to finish that word, “crap,” he corrected himself.

After all this time he had been telling you about his feelings, asking for help and advice, ranting on how much he adored you to…you?

Needless to say, Damian didn’t come to school for a couple of days and when he did, he didn’t dare to talk to you until youapproached him.

another Damian?

Yes, there’s another one coming.

….soon.

demilypyro:

I’m probably a socialist in that I think it seems pretty unnecessary for people to starve or not have a house or not have medicine