#allo aro discussion
Discussion Topic 4
Is your experience of aromanticism different from ace aros? And how/why? (Plus any other thoughts on the topic.)
And/or
Is your experience of your sexual orientation different from alloromantic people with the same orientation? And how/why + other thoughts?
(I’m going to be using my personal blog for personal additions from now on but to clarify I run @alloarocommunity.)
Yes I experience aromanticism differently from aroaces. It’s really difficult to put how exactly into words which is why I’m hoping to hear more perspectives.
Obviously with bi people there’s the SAM issue - this is a thing with aroaces (bc not all of them use the SAM although some do) as well, but a lot of aspec use the SAM, and even those who don’t have an understanding of it.
I don’t interact much with the bi community because I can’t without being erased/ignored. That sounds negative but I don’t blame them. It’s no individual personal making the decision to ignore aro people it’s just that for a couple of reasons it tends to happen naturally.
Aromantic awareness is pretty dire, so most people don’t know about or don’t think to include aros in discussions.
As well as this, when people who don’t use the SAM talk about sexual orientations they tend to talk about crushes and relationships. And that’s where they lose me.
It’s a fundamentally different experience being aromantic bisexual and being just bisexual. I relate on a surface level. I love bi memes and the bi flag, and bi jokes. And I do relate to being bisexual, that’s why I use the label. It’s not just that the word technically describes me, I relate to the term and to the community. But being aromantic means that I can’t relate to a lot of bi experiences.
On the other hand, as much as many of us feel erased for being allosexual in the aromantic community, I’ve always felt that most of the community understands and expects that we all have wildly different experiences with the way our orientations intersect with each other.
When I talk about being aromantic, my sexual orientation doesn’t even really come into it. Of course, that can lead to the feeling of erasure, but it’s still easier for me to interact with the community when it’s not assumed that my experiences correspond with everyone elses.
Discussion Topic 4
Is your experience of aromanticism different from ace aros? And how/why? (Plus any other thoughts on the topic.)
And/or
Is your experience of your sexual orientation different from alloromantic people with the same orientation? And how/why + other thoughts?
I’m having a conversation in which I got to saying that my experiences with allosexual attraction have little in common with alloromantic allosexual attraction, particularly in terms of behaviours relating to expressions of sexual attraction, and this isn’t talked about.
In a world where it is assumed sexual attraction comes with romantic attraction, it is exceptionally difficult to pursue relationships. I don’t approach people on the basis of my sexual attraction. I don’t have one-night stands or casual sex. Most of the time, my sexual attraction is an experience of feeling attraction with a resulting inability to do anything about it, because how the hell do I have the conversation about being aro? Autism is a factor here in that I struggle with initiating any sort of relationship, I will admit, but my aromanticism excludes me from the dating spaces that alloromantic allosexuals, even otherwise LGBP ones, can access, unless I wish to endure the erasure of my identity by being forced into an alloromantic environment. Even sites based around casual hook-ups are still used by allo people who have unconscious expectations about romance developing if they meet the right person! How many news and advice stories have I read about people having hook-ups and getting angry when the other person won’t develop the relationship into romance? About how an unwillingness to move from hook-up to dating is seen as a sign of immaturity?
My allosexual attraction cannot define me in the same way to the outside eye because it isn’t something I can do anything aboutfor fear of expectations I cannot meet and conversations I cannot safely or easily have. I experience it, but I don’t live it. It has no resulting behaviour demonstrable to others because my behaviours are shaped by being aromantic, not by being pansexual.
To the outside, my days as a pansexual look identical to my days as an asexual, and this is because I am aromantic. I think this is what made it so difficult for me to tell the shifts in my orientation–because my aromanticism doesn’t change, and aromanticism shapes my behaviours and interactions with other people, not my asexuality and not my pansexuality.
We tend to either force ourselves into a romantic mould, often unsuccessfully, or step away from relationships altogether. We rarely have the ability to form relationships, casual or long-term, that honour our aromanticism and our sexual attraction both, and most of us do not feel safe enough to voice our identity and needs to someone not also aromantic.
To paint allosexual aros as people who are unrestrained in our attractions, who move from bed to bed or have a series of one-night-stands, is to disregard the aromantic part of our identities. There’s this assumption that aromanticism just erases the romantic attraction, erases the part that drives us towards amatonormative assumptions of marriage and relationships–so that we have the dangerous thing of sex without love. There’s this assumption that romantic attraction holds us back from being predatory in our desires for others, and without it, we just fuck where and how we please, heedless of our partners’ natural (amatonormative) expectation and desire for romantic relationships.
Being aromantic, though, is not a lack or absence in the way it is so often conceptualised. That part in us is filled–filled by amatonormativity, filled by misunderstanding, filled by a world that has no positive concept of sexual attraction without romantic attraction. What others see as an absence is filled by something the world doesn’t understand and won’t acknowledge.
Aromanticismseparatesus from the people to whom we are attracted. We are not liberated by it in our interactions with others as the conventional Chad the Frat Boy narrative suggests; we are hobbled by it. We are either forced to pretend to be something we’re not or we avoid connections with others, and neither response allows us to live an authentic life as an allosexual aromantic.
People need to stop talking as though aromantic allosexual attraction and alloromantic allosexual attraction are the same thing, because doing this dismisses just how big an impact aromanticism has on sexual attraction.
Thank you very much for this post, OP, it’s something I’ve been thinking about as well for a while now. It’s frustrating how allosexual aros are painted as people who just sleep around with everyone, when it would be a lot easier to act on our sexuality if we weren’t also aro.
A thing I would also like to add is that when people talk about allosexual aros, they also seem to take away a lot of normal sex-related emotional responses. For example, one can become very emotionally vulnerable during sex, or desire a partner they are familiar with because they don’t trust or want a stranger to touch them in an intimate way. There’s a lot of reasons one may not want casual sex that have nothing to do with romance, and yet people talk as if they don’t apply to allo aros at all. As if we’re some kind of, I don’t know, sexual machine who can only experience the purely physical aspects of intercourse.
I suppose this could be a part of the Cold Emotionless Aro stereotype, but I feel nobody really talks about this specific thing.
Yes, yes, yes! Oh, I am so glad you said that, @hella-aro, because I didn’t realise I felt that way–it’s like a lightbulb moment over something I’ve never felt allowed to recognise, burbling away underneath, but yes. So much yes! We are not only depicted as lacking that ordinary, human need for emotional intimacy, we’re denied recognition of that need in the first place, even though many of us have it. I’ll be doing some soul-searching on this, so thank you, thank you for saying this, because it changes how I think about myself and how I’ll write aro characters.
Truly, thank you so much for your reblog. I actually feel a bit shaken up by it, in a good way, and I hope this is the beginning of more conversations.
I do need to correct myself and say that, of course, there are allo-aros who do fit the stereotypes in the sense of casual sex or bed-hopping (which is by no means inherently predatory a behaviour–that is a stereotype we must condemn and reject) and this is perfectly okay and fine! I think my words above generalise in places where they shouldn’t be, a habit I need to work harder on breaking. (I’m much better at observing generalisations in other people than I am in myself.) I apologise, because erasing people isn’t my intent (but intent doesn’t erase impact) and frustration doesn’t justify it. What I should have said is that the assumption that aros who experience sexual attraction all fit this stereotype without anyone’s ever stopping to think that the experience of aromanticism itself makes this a very difficult stereotype to live sends a dangerous message and shows a complete lack of understanding for the allosexual aromantic experience.
Aro-allos who dolive their lives this way, dealing with society’s censure for just being themselves while having their lives used as a weapon against their own, have more courage and confidence than I can imagine.
@fanficfridge replied to your post:
I feel you so hard. As an autistic bisexual aromantic myself, relationships are so hard. Autism makes me feel like an alien from the start, and then being aro is like discovering that the barest of healthy friendship is deemed the epitome of romance and I’m just over here like urgh.
I’m over here arughing right back at you, honestly.
It’s worth talking about that while neurodiversity does not mean one is a-spec and a-spec does not mean one is neurodiverse, there are a great many a-specs who are neurodiverse in varying ways, and aside from amatonormativity and the challenges faced in being aro-spec, neurodiversity adds another layer of difficult to something that is already beyond challenging. How do you explain being aro when you struggle to talk to people and folks are not predisposed to understand you when you do talk? How do you get people to take your aromanticism seriously when you’re autistic when they don’t take it seriously when you’re neurotypical? How do you talk about your needs as an aro when you’ve been discouraged as an autistic from voicing any need or feeling that is seen as unusual? How do you navigate relationship assumptions and expectations when autism and aromanticism both make your needs, expressions and desires so outside of what is considered normal that you don’t even know what you need?
If navigating relationships as an allosexual aro is 9.5 out of 10 on the difficulty scale, adding neurodiversity or any disability that impacts communication or social interaction makes it a 12 out of 10.
Can I add in something, @hella-aroand@aroworlds? - After saying thanks for finally putting all of this into words.
It’s - it’s not just normal sex-related emotional responses we’re denied: it’s also unusual ones that pertain to the fact that we’re things aside from alloaro.
That we might, for instance, have experiences that make it difficult to trust people.
(Because the thought of having to trust a stranger makes me want to curl up under a blanket. Actually - wait, that blanket is in reach, correction: makes me curl up under a blanket. A comfy blanket.)
That we might have issues with our bodies, that we might be part of a vulnerable group, that we might have sensory issues, that we might…
Point is: We’re not just denied the need for emotional intimacy, I also feel as if we’re denied any other emotional need, too?
Something else - in addition to the fact that other people developing expectations of romance would be really uncomfortable, I also feel a persistent fear that I might end up hurting other people because they develop it, and that this would be my fault?
I’m not quite sure why I feel like this would be my fault no matter how much I would try to communicate that I’m not going to develop romantic feelings, because I really couldn’t do anything about it - but I still feel, on some level, like I can’t try and find a longer-term sexual partner because that would need to be a friend and what if they end up getting hurt? (… trusting other people to exercise their own judgement is… well, hindered by the “trust” part for me. I probably should try to?)
And - I’d really like to know whether I’m alone with that fear. Also, help in thinking through its causes.
Oh I’m so glad @aro-to-the-knee reblogged a version of this post so I saw it even though it’s about 6 months old now - this is something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately!
I have so much to say on this topic. First of all I relate so much to what’s been said already in this thread and some of the other responses as well. Being allo aro isn’t just like being allo allo without the romance. It’s an entirely different experience. And I do feel that my options in terms of relationships are very limited. I recently watched an old video by Rowan Ellis about feeling like it’s more difficult as a lgbtq+ person to find relationships and that definitely pertains to me - both as someone generally perceived as a woman who is generally more inclined towards women and as an aromantic person. How difficult is it to find someone who you are attracted to and feel comfortable around and are interested in (especially as a queer person) - who feels the same way about you? What are the chances they don’t have romantic expectations of you? How can you trust that they won’t then develop them?
I’ve tried dating websites but they’re all geared toward romance and I end up feeling like I’m misleading people just by being there.
I also really want to talk about what @crimsonsquare added which is why I reblogged this version. I definitely relate to feeling like my emotional needs are erased and the fact that people act as if romantic needs are the only ones that matter. As well as this, for me it’s like the only socially acceptable way to become close enough to someone to be comfortable in a sexual situation with them is through a romantic relationship which isn’t an option for me.
I might feel comfortable with friends but if you were to begin a sexual relationship with a friend as an aromantic person you’d have to, as crimsonsquare said, trust that they won’t start to develop romantic feelings for you. This is something that terrifies me and I have ignored opportunities because of it.
I don’t think this is an irrational fear? It does require a lot more trust as an allo aro person. The society we live in puts sex in an amatonormative context as default, so when we try to navigate relationships the burden must always be on us to make sure the other person/people aren’t going to get hurt. It is seen as our responsibility to protect other people from their own feelings even when there has been no indication from us that romance is an option.
This is so pervasive that it’s something I deal with even when not trying to begin a relationship. I have entered into friendships and had to explicitly tell people I am aromantic just in case they interpreted my kindness as flirting. And still, when one friend did develop romantic feelings for me, he hoped I would change my mind even though I made it very clear from the very beginning that I was not romantically interested in anyone and never would be. It was not my responsibility to protect his feelings but the whole time I was the one terrified of being accused of leading him on.
There’s definitely an idea that romantic love is pure and beautiful and sex is only pure and beautiful when it’s an expression of that love. And this is present as a default assumption even in sex-positive communities. If someone enters into a sexual relationship knowing they will not experience romantic feelings we expect them to disclose that even when no promises have been made, but we do not expect someone to disclose the fact that they may have expectations of their sexual partner should they begin to develop these feelings.
I’m not saying it’s impossible to find people who it’s safe for aro people to enter into sexual relationships with, but it is a factor we need to consider and it does make it a lot harder.
Alloaros,
I want to know how to make aspec spaces more welcoming to you. I have a pretty active local ace/aro group. But, it dominantly ace. I’m trying to take over with my aro agenda. I want to make it a space that’s welcoming to all aros, allosexual or ace, or somewhere between.
Here’s what I’m currently doing to make the group more aro;
- Got them to change the name to Aces and Aros.
- Bring aro pamphlets and handouts to pride event where we have a booth.
- Openly and frequently talk about the aro pieces of my experiences. (side note: it’s really nice to sit in a group of people and just have everyone be super confused about what the hell romance even is)
- Included aro resources and information on the webpage we have
Things I’m considering doing;
- Asking them to change the header images for the group to include both the ace and aro flag (it’s currently just the ace one)
- Getting an aro flag to fly next to the ace one at pride events.
- Getting arospec identity pins made (we currently have ace spectrum ones, the aro flag, ace cake and aro cake pins)
- Having an aro centered coffee shop meet.
- Having more aro centered discussion groups. (We currently have monthly discussions)
What I want to know is, what things have made you feel more welcome in irl aspec spaces and what things have made you feel excluded?
It’s great that you’re doing this, it really is! I’m also very glad that you’ve reached out to people, because it’s important that allo-aros get a look-in here.
But the thing I notice is that … well, everything on the list above is about focusing on and including the aro generally. It’s equally applicable for allo-aros as it is aro-aces. It reads like a general list of things needed to benefit all aro-specs, and while that’s a good start and will make your community better for us, it can’t be the finishing point.
Allo-aro equity (equity for any sub-community under the aromantic umbrella) can’t be predicated on treating aro as though all our aro-spec experiences are the same.
If you want allo-aros to be truly included, you have to make space for the allosexual part of allo-aro, too–something at which even the aro-spec community, right now, isn’t doing a great job (and the a-spec community is ignoring). I already feel that to particulate in aro-spec spaces, I need to push the allosexual part of me aside–to focus on the aro and keep sexual attraction shoved to the background, as though it should naturally be less important to me as an a-spec person than the aro. The truth is that my allosexual identities are just as connected to my aromanticism, and I find this artificial separation imposed on me frustrating and alienating.
So I’m going to go a little beyond the scope of your question and tell you what I want to see for specific allo-aro inclusion in a-spec spaces:
- Spaces that allow for detailed conversations about sexual attraction as it is shaped by aromanticism and aro-spec identities/experiences. This means both spaces where allo-aros can talk amongst ourselves and spaces where we can talk to ace audiences about our experiences, because right now few aces outside aro-spec spaces are listening to us and we need to do something about that.
- The understanding that sexual attraction spaces do not allow space for us to talk about our attraction as shaped by aromanticism–we need that space in a-spec communities because we do not have it anywhere else.
- The understanding that due to stereotypes around aromanticism and society’s rampant amatonormativity, allo-aros are often denied the chance to truly explore and discuss the casual sexual relationships and experiences we may wish to have.
- Allo-aro only spaces, conversations and meet-up opportunities (preferably run by an allo-aro). If it’s difficult for aromantics to find other aromantics in real life, it’s all but impossible for allo-aros to find other allo-aros. I know your group may not be anywhere near big enough for this yet, but should you get to that point, keep this in mind as something important to foster and create. As a disabled allo-aro who finds online networking difficult, I’d love the chance for local meet-ups with other allo-aros.
- Spaces where allo-aros can speak freely about having and experiencing sexual attraction and sexual relationships while also knowing when it is and isn’t appropriate to do so. You may need to do some work on how to safely go about this for sex-respulsed aces (but this practice of advising needs to be in place for alloromantic aces conversing around romance-repulsed aro-specs, too). Where do people need to be more circumspect? Where can people speak freely? Make sure that, for every space where sexual attraction can’t be focused on for the needs of sex-respulsed folks, there’s a space where it can be. Have clear conversations on whatcan be discussed, where and when it can be discussed, and where else it can be discussed if not in this place and at that time.
(You don’t want sex-repulsed asexuals feeling alienated/uncomfortable if the conversation heads towards experiencing sexual attraction, but you also don’t want allo-aros feeling that they’re both causing someone else discomfort and aren’t allowed to talk about our own experiences because of the asexuals in the room–and we already feel like we’re not allowed to talk on this subject! Be really clear on what can be talked about when, and if someone objects to discussions about sexual attraction in a space meant for this because of sex repulsion, enforce the right for this space to be about that conversation.)
- The active challenging of sex-negative and sex-antagonistic language in a space that allows for acceptance and exploration of relationship anarchy. This benefits everyone, but it’s important for many allo-aros.
- Relating to the above, the active challenging of language that assumes humans only pair up with one other human at any given time in an exclusive monogamous relationship. A fair number of allo-aros are also polyamorous, polyaffectionate or necessarily possessing multiple intimate partners for different types of relationships.
- The active challenging of the idea that queerplatonic as a description of a relationship cannot include sexual relationships. When the aro-spec community spends so much time on QPPs and QPRs, to treat these as non-sexual closes allo-aros out of a central concept in the community. Make sure that allo-aros in sexual QPRs are able to participate in conversations about QPRs without having their relationships invalidated.
- Making sure that asexuals do not treat allo-aros as predatory for experiencing sexual attraction. I know of circumstances where allo-aros weren’t invited to a-spec events for fear we’d hit on asexual attendees. If this is ever so much as hinted at, allo-aros need to see this directly and publicly acknowledged, corrected and responded to by community leaders. It can’t be discussed quietly; we need to know that the leaders of our community will not allow this.
(We’re not attending a-spec community spaces with the goal of finding a fuck buddy. We’re just not. The reality is that we’re terrified of being thought this when we only want to talk to other aro-specs about being aro! Not to mention that if this were in any way a valid concern, all aro-specs should fear being around alloromantic aces for the potential of their making romantic overtures…)
- Providing information about the specific shapes of erasure, antagonism and amatonormativity faced by allo-aros in addition to that of aro-specs generally.
- Having allo-aro-specific handouts and pamphlets in addition to general aro ones. Linking to allo-aro blogs, posts, spaces and creative media pieces on your website so there’s allo-aro-specific information alongside aro-ace-specific and general-aro information. Don’t make “allo-aro” as a couple of paragraphs at the bottom of a general aro leaflet; make it its own thing with its own information and resources, even if it’s a smaller document.
(Would folks here be interested in creating an informative allo-aro zine as a community project, something all folks can download, print out and hand out, created by allo-aros specifically for to the a-spec community? A zine with short entries on allo-aro experiences, allo-aro creative pieces and information on allo-aro identities, perhaps? Document design and production is my trade, so I see no reason why we can’t make one if folks are interested in contributing content. If folks don’t mind waiting until after AAW, I’ll make a post about starting one. I think a community-created resource that other folks can print out for community events would be a very useful thing.)
- Remembering that aro-aces talking about their aromantic experiences doesn’t, won’t and can’t completely map onto the aromantic experiences of allo-aros. General aro visibility will make it better for us, absolutely, but while we have a lot in common with aro-aces, we also have different needs and experiences.
- If you don’t yet have out allo-aros in your community, have some aro-aces take the time to read allo-aro blog posts in your aromantic-centred conversations so folks can get a better sense of the difference in experiences. This prepares the community space for when allo-aros do join (or people reveal themselves to be allo-aro) so the burden of explaining who we are and what we need isn’t entirely on our shoulders.
- Actively challenge and correct comments and assumptions that not only engage in aromantic erasure but specifically allo-aro erasure, and explain why these comments and assumptions hurt allo-aros. Likewise, if there are a couple of allo-aros in any group, don’t leave it to us to defend ourselves. You shouldn’t speak over us on our own experiences, but you’re more than welcome to explain to someone why referring to all a-specs as “asexual” is a terrible thing. It goes a long way to making us feel supported, especially when chances are high that we will mention things asexuals not connected to the aro-spec community will find confronting or uncomfortable.
- Engage in deliberate and specific outreach to allo-aro-identified folks in ways that increase our visibility. This may mean finding guest speakers until you can find regular community members, for example, or reading out allo-aro-authored pieces if you can’t find a local allo-aro. Signal-boost our works, offer chances for interviews and featured posts on your website, promote the blogs and ko-fi accounts of any allo-aros who work with you. Help make us seen in a-spec spaces. It’s not just good enough to seek out our help and feedback; you absolutely must promote and signal-boost us in response. Actively let the world know that we exist and what it is we do, because a-spec spaces, historically, are not good at this, and we’re desperate to be heard.
(If folks want to use any of my fiction or blog posts in their outreach or community information, be it in print or on your website, message me and tell me what you want to use and how you want to reproduce it. I promise you that if it’s on the internet, I’m going to say yes 99% of the time and then link to whatever it is you’re doing with it.)
Lastly, if it’s a group for both aces and aros, it absolutely cannot just have the ace flag colours in the header. Nor can it only have the word “ace” in the title. I know that the aro-aces doing this have to negotiate with asexual folks who know very little about the reasons for doing this. I know my aro-ace allies have to deal with unfair difficulty and resistance in making this change, and I am grateful for your efforts here, I am. But any group that is named and branded as asexual alone is not a safe space for allo-aros and changing this must be a priority for anyone who is serious about including us.
Apologies for the post of doom, but it’s not something I often see discussed and it’s something that really needs discussing.
thank you so much @alloaroworlds for all of the work you put into writing this up!
You’re absolutely right that all of the things I mentioned were about general aro things. and that in a space that’s currently dominated by aces, adding in aro experiences doesn’t do nearly enough to creating space for alloaros.
I’ve started putting some of your suggestions into action and I’m hoping to work on the others as our group grows.
Also, if there is an informative allo-aro zine made I would love to share it on the online spaces I maintain and print it out for irl things.
Yeah, it’s not something I’ve seen spoken about? Even I’ve only had conversations on “how to include allo-aros” that focused on things like pride flag visibility and titles–and these are important, so important, but we (as a community) have never looked much past that. It didn’t hit me until I read through your post and realised that I’ve never seen anything written on specific allo-aro inclusion, comfort and safety.
I admit that some of the above is difficult with a small group or a small/minimum allo-aro presence; that’s a problem that’s very difficult to surmount. Even online, we’re dealing with the difficulty of being a small collection of people on the edges of a larger group.
(This blog passed two hundred followers this week! We are growing!)
My personal life is a disaster, and I’m last-minute trying to make creative content to post for AAW next week, but after that, I’d like to pretend that I’m a person who has it together and see if we can’t discuss making a zine–what should be on it, who wants to contribute what, etc. I might as well put my InDesign powers to use, right? There’s already the seeds of an article between this and @crimsonsquare‘sequally-epic response to your post…
(Hey,@crimsonsquare! Want to collaborate on a “how to make allo-aros welcome in your a-spec community” article for this zine?)
I can definitely contribute to a zine! I’ve never been involved in making anything like it before but I can offer writing and art skills.
I’m not one for analysis of social behaviour (Jared, 19) but anyone see the idea that alloaros are sex addicts? Like just the idea that since our romantic attraction is non-existant then we must be filling the gap with sexual attraction? Like how wrong is that?
I’m not a sexual person even if I do feel sexual attraction like any allosexual. However I’m not out every night hooking up? I’m just me, doing me. I shouldn’t have to explain this.
Yeah plus I hate the implicit sex-shaming in this idea. Like, if someone did do those things that would be fine and it’s not really anyone else’s business.
