I was rewatching the credits for clues and discovered that this hallway appears in the ending credits of the first two episodes.
But then in the 3rd ep, we get this shot of the doors,
which appear to be the same institution/facility.
The doors aren’t exactly the same, but it feels like the same location to me based on the bricks, wallpaper, and lamps. And since the camera seems to be moving closer to the open door, I’m wondering if Marc or Steven may end up in this place.
OR another possibility is that we might see all 3 alters (Steven, Marc, and Jake) in a type of mind palace / inner world type place that just looks like this building.
Either way, I definitely think we’re going to see the inside of this building in the next episode.
Wow, at first introduction they are really going for Jarvis as a mysterious character…. just wait guys, just wait.
I know that obviously they did that to build suspense, make you think she’s really in danger etc etc, but watching it back when you know Jarvis is SO FUNNY, because seriously, he thought that was the best way to approach a secret agent? Bless, he just really wants to try on a confident swagger, like yeah I can totally fit into this world, I’m so cool, I’ve been entrusted with this Important Mission, I’m totally going to impress this woman with my Highly Mysterious Manner, also she’s definitely not going to just shoot me or anything…
Film noir(/nwɑːr/;French:[film nwaʁ]) is a cinematic term used primarily to describe stylish Hollywoodcrime dramas, particularly those that emphasize cynical attitudes and motivations. The 1940s and 1950s are generally regarded as the “classic period” of American film noir. Many of the prototypical stories and much of the attitude of classic noir derive from the hardboiled school of crime fiction that emerged in the United States during the Great Depression.[1]
Screwball comedy is a subgenre of the romantic comedy genre that became popular during the Great Depression, originating in the early 1930s and thriving until the early 1940s, satirizing the traditional love story. Many secondary characteristics of this genre are similar to film noir, but it distinguishes itself for being characterized by a female who dominates the relationship with the male central character, whose masculinity is challenged.[1] The two engage in a humorous battle of the sexes, which was a new theme for Hollywood and audiences at the time.[2]
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If you look at the arc of the series, particularly over both seasons, there is a gradual shift from a very heavy noir tone to more of a screwball one.
Both of these would have been in the lexicon of the characters at that time and both work to invoke our impressions of the time based on classic cinema and pop culture references.
In reference to the characters, this is actually very meaningful and the early darker noir tone serves to underscore how they are all still grieving the war and what they lost there and how it continues to impact their lives. The slow shift to the screwball tone and focus on romance in season two mirrors the slow shift in the characters as they process their grief and start to live more joyful, optimistic lives.
Jarvis is of course very serious at the beginning, not because he isn’t a funny person but because his boss is in deep shit and his livelihood is actually on the line. He’s got a tarnished war record and a skill set that doesn’t get him very far if Stark goes to jail. He doesn’t just get exciting adventures when he helps Peggy, he benefits from her optimism and her ability to deal with obstacles in a way that make him feel more capable himself. This takes the screwball elements and flips them on its head: instead of his masculinity being challenged by Peggy and their screwball-like back-and-forth hijinks, he learns more of how to be his best self.
Marvel is always at its best when it uses the genre to really support the character arc within the movie. Winter Soldier and political thriller, Hawkeye and its Die Hard vibe, Daredevil and the noir/crime thriller, GOTG and bombastic space opera… and Agent Carter which uses spy genre on top of these.
Wait, I just realized something. In “Spider-Man 2″, Sam Raimi referenced Doctor Strange. In “Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness”, Sam Raimi referenced Spider-Man.
I know it’s supposed to be a reference to “No Way Home”, but it also feels like Raimi did a callback to himself.
another way fandom tried to twist steve’s canon characterisation into something less sympathetic was by turning “steve was bullied and routinely suffered violence because he was disabled” into “preserum steve liked picking fights and went looking for trouble”. thereby making even his own clear cut victimization by his tormentors his fault
This is so incredibly true that’ll add this:
Steve had asthma, which was classified as an imagined product of mental illness, meaning they deemed him mentally ill. He also had heart palpitations, scoliosis, bone/joint/other deformities, scarlet fever, rheumatic fever, sinusitis, “nervous troubles” (likely anxiety) and more.
This isn’t made up by fandom. Steve wasn’t a short, otherwise healthy man. The first time we can read it on screen is on his enlistment form in TFA, the second time is in the museum exhibit in TWS.
The Eugenics movement was a big thing around that time, in Steve’s own neighborhood. Thousands of people (disabled and of color) had been forcibly sterilized by the state because they were unfit for society and didn’t fit into the ideal. A lot of them were killed. Steve was considered a burden, mooching off of resources, spreading sickness, causing hysteria, and he was at risk of violence every day.
And on top of that? He’s the child of immigrants. Irish-Catholic immigrants. Steve was at risk of violence for his belief alone.
The Americans believed that Irish immigrants were all poor, disease-ridden, brought crime, practiced an alien religion, threatened to take jobs away, would sexually assault American children and women, and strained welfare budgets. There was a lot of hatred against them, and since Steve is also disabled, he had a giant target on his back.
Steve being white and male might have been the only thing that kept him somewhat safe from harm. It’s possible Sarah didn’t teach Steve to speak their own language because speaking Irish or with an Irish accent would put him at risk.
He was bullied because he was disabled, because he was poor, because his father was dead and his family not American. Picking a fight could very well be a dead sentence.
And last thing: when Steve picked a fight with that guy in the movie theater, it was because the guy was incredibly insensitive to the war and its victims, and people around Steve were crying. We get to see a clear shot of a woman who’s in tears, and Steve saw that.
You can see other people look up too, disturbed. But most important is the woman, who looks like this
The only thing Steve said was to show respect and shut up. He didn’t jump that guy. He wasn’t looking for a fight.
Later, when Steve’s at boot camp, he was bullied by Hudge multiple times, and what did he do? Nothing. He clenched his jaw and continued his training. He didn’t take the bait. Steve knows what he’s doing.
He’s not an “angry chihuahua”. He’s not an idiot who needs someone (like Bucky) to “keep him back” at all times. He’s the one who knows his limits best, and what he’s capable of. He knows when to keep quiet.
People who purposely erase this part of Steve to make him look unsympathetic should really check their biases. It’s wrong to erase his disabilities to fit your own narrative. If you have to pretend Steve wasn’t disabled to prove a point, then your point is already invalid.
@cosmicmechanism love your tags
People confuse “angry Chihuahua personality” with like.. an unwillingness to stay silent in a situation where speaking up is right, because doing the right thing is More Important than avoiding a beating. Steve would rather go home with a few bruises and, from time to time, a broken bone, than a broken moral and conscience. His strength of character is what makes him the best candidate for the serum - he is willing to die for what’s right, and he would rather die than do what’s wrong
“Sex Facts for Men” Richard J. Lambert, Ph, G., M.D.
23-page informational booklet Published 1936, Franklin Publishing Company (Padell Book Company, 830 Broadway, New York City)
This one-colour informational booklet was produced to educate men on male anatomy and sex. Includes illustrated anatomical diagrams and sections titled: - Anatomy and Physiology of the Male Generative Organs - Is Continence Harmful? - Mistakes of the Bridegroom - Immorality in Marriage - Self Abuse
In Marvel comics, Deadpool is far from the only character to break the fourth wall. And he wasn’t the first. She-Hulk, aka Jennifer Walters, the lawyer cousin of Bruce Banner that premiered in 1980, was the first. And in her second series, The Sensational She-Hunk, it was her thing. Commenting constantly on the writing of the comic, her own objectification, as well as marvels fan-base, she was one to often (literally) peel back the layers of her own pages. Practically every cover of The Sensational She-Hulk was a fourth-wall break, and funny ones at that.
While we’re on the topic of Civil War having weird narratives: Peter Parker’s speech about being a Superhero completely aligns with Steve’s worldview, not Tony’s… yet Marvel had Spidey side with Tony. It makes his storyline a little muddled, because while the narrative objectively connects Peter to Tony through their heart-to-heart conversation, Marvel wrote Peter as being very similar to Steve. With the characterization they gave us, there’s no way Peter would have joined Tony’s side if he knew anything about the fight.
Peter says to Tony ”If you can do the things that I can, but you don’t, and then bad things happen… they happen because of you” .
Which is the same philosophy that Steve has, and says to Tony twice in this movie: first when discussing the Accords – “What if there’s somewhere we need to go, but [the UN] won’t let us?” – and then later, in a more personal tone: “If I see a situation pointed South, I can’t ignore it”.
Both Steve and Peter believe their powers almost obligate them to help people whenever they can, because they can. Taking that choice to help out of their hands doesn’t make them any less responsible for what occurs – it just shifts the blame. Which is why Steve won’t sign the Accords, and Peter helps people even though he’s just a kid who’d prefer to play football. They want to help, they can help… so they do. It’s that simple honesty and true belief that really defines Captain America, and we see it here in Peter, too.
Tony accepts Peter’s answer even while realizing that it’s Steve’s argument (which is weird, since he fought with Steve on the same statement only hours before), and replies “So you want to look out for the little guy, do your part, make the world a better place?”. Peter agrees and reiterates that the ‘little guy’ is his reason for being a superhero.
Which is interesting, because Steve has always been the little guy from Brooklyn who just wanted to help make the world a better place. Steve and Bucky are the underdog in this fight… not Tony and the government. This aligns Peter with Steve even more, but Marvel still tries to connect him to Tony over their intelligence and shared love of technology.
Tony gets Peter to fight for his side using Steve’s ideology.And Marvel doesn’t really acknowledge the irony in that. It’s especially unsettling when Peter parrots back what Tony said about Steve, not realizing it’s actually Tony’s problem in the film: “You’re wrong, but you think you’re right. That makes you dangerous”.
Give me a moment - I’d like to rewrite Tony’s speech to Peter and give it the same meaning in different words:
“Your work could be a gift to mankind. You could shape the century. Without you, we’ll fail, and the Avengers can’t give the world the freedom it deserves.”
Sorry, Marvel; from where I’m standing, Iron Man has officially become a bad guy.
I also liked how Peter told Cap that Tony “said you’d say that, and you’d be wrong”. The way Tony handled the situation with Peter was just wrong on so many levels and illustrates why *Tony* is the one who needs oversight. Because Tony is a man who does not seem to learn from his mistakes.
In AoU he builds a killer robot(it’s purpose is to protect in place of the Avengers, don’t tell me it wasn’t programmed to kill), so not only is he in the weapons business again but when it goes wrong he takes the fleshy robot downloaded with Ultron’s consciousness and adds some Jarvis and a magic space rock that has the power to enslave and by the grace of God or I don’t know what he manages to Forrest Gump(thank you “The Mexican”) his way out of an even worse disaster.
In Civil War he’s confronted by the mother of a young man who died in the Sokovian disaster. Laying aside how offensive it is that it has to be an American to die before Tony(and we the audience in the US of A?) has it really hit home the kind of massive collateral damage his invention caused and resolves that everyone(kthxTony, we all knew about the killer robot and fully supported building it to make us obsolete) has to do better. As soon as things aren’t going his way he brings in a young man without the consent or knowledge of his guardian to be his ace in the hole in another potentially fatal confrontation.
I love RDJ, I enjoy Tony at times even if he lashes out and I would never be able to work around someone who has so little respect for anyone’s boundaries but his own. This makes it very difficult for me to trust Tony as a character to do the right thing. I think he wants to, and means to but he’s not learning and when he doesn’t get it right things go horribly wrong and others suffer for his hubris.
He wants to and means to, yes. But Tony Stark is a concrete example of how the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Sorry, Marvel; from where I’m standing, Iron Man has officially become a bad guy.
I enjoyed Stark in the same I’d enjoy an antagonist…because I thought he was being played as a sad sack antagonist. I was entertained by his backdoor rationalization and feeling bad for the poor bastard and according to fandom, that shouldn’t… be… happening? Wasn’t that the point of his character in the movie or was I not meant to find it all entertaining?
The thing is that he’s fucking up big time, especially with Peter but I really, honestly thought the script was in on it– that he was supposed to be Strong and Wrong and that we were meant to see him laid low and stubborn and enjoy the process and lead up (the fight which included Sppiderman’s exposition/plotsplaining) to the downfall/asswhoopin/stalemate.
Is that not what the text was playing at?
Did writers,Markus and McFeely completely underestimate how 100% done people were with Stark after AoU– that it was too late to try to turn it around?
This shouldn’t surprise anyone, but I am fucking livid.
How dare you take a character that is the epitome of good and justice and standing up for all those who can’t do it themselves and being that beacon of hope for so many people and turn him into a fucking Nazi? (I don’t care if HYDRA is “different” or “not the same” as Nazi Germany because it was based on it. As far as I’m concerned, there isn’t any difference between the two.)
And for what? Shock value? It’s garbage and I hope people continue to call them on it.
You can’t take over 70 years of established, not only canon, but personality and heart and how and who that person is at the core and pull a 180. It doesn’t fucking work like that. It doesn’t.
It’s lazy, shitty writing and should not only not be tolerated, but also not excusedfrom professional writers. This is the type of shit I’d expect to read in a fanfic by a twelve year old who is just starting to write and thinks BIGGER is BETTER and dropping things in out of nowhere is what makes for good writing because no one saw that coming.
It doesn’t.
Something that makes matters worse for me is how fucking smug they are about it:
SPENCER: Rick Remender, who was the previous writer on Captain America, had been building towards this story of Hydra having infiltrated various institutions of government and various super teams. I thought that sounded like too big of a story. I drilled it down and thought, what if there’s just one very valuable Hydra plant? What if they’re looking for 100 people, but there’s just one? So I started asking, who’s the worst person it could possibly be? It was really obvious straight away that there’s nobody who could do more damage and nobody that could be a more valuable Hydra plant than Steve Rogers. That was really the genesis. It sprang pretty organically from story ideas that were already on the table. (X)
I’m really stuck on one word: Organically.
Organically.
There is no fucking universe that exists where Steve Rogers being a Nazi could be even slightly considered a natural progression of events. All you did was think, you know what would be fucking crazy? If Steve Rogers has really been a Nazi the whole time?! Yeah, that would be crazy, also not even remotely believable. There’s no way that this works in the universe.
You didn’t even try and establish it in any way. You just dropped it in there and want me to go back and read all his previous comics to see the “darker” edge that everything has now that I’ll know he’s been secretly HYDRA this whole time. That’s not how it works. You can’t just drop things in because it’s “cool” and “unexpected” and “all the cool kids are doing it.” Writing doesn’t work like that and people are going to notice and question it. (Just ask Game of Thrones fans.)
What’s so fucking ironic to me is that the other day people were up in arms about how if Captain America were to get a boyfriend, that would somehow ruin his entire character’s history. But making him secretly a Nazi doesn’t? You need to pick a side and stick to it or just call yourself what you are: homophobic/biphobic. (Side note, I was actually going to write a post about #GiveCaptainAmericaABoyfriend yesterday and thought I better wait until morning because I was so upset. Who’d have thought I’d have woken up to something that would infuriate me beyond belief?)
All Marvel has done is take a character who is beloved and known—whether from the comics, the films, or everything—and forced them to be something that is not only unbelievable, but also completely against their character.
Not only that, but why the fuck should I care? Why would I want to continue reading Steve Rogers’ comics knowing that he’s a fucking Nazi? Why would I want to go back to any of his old stuff knowing that he’s a Nazi?
Congratulations Nick Spencer and Tom Brevoort, you have effectively killed both the Captain America franchise as we know it, as well as Steve Rogers.
They have written him into a corner; there’s no way out. It is what it is. Steve is and apparently always has been a Nazi. There’s no escaping that fact now. But more than that, there’s no fucking redemption for him now. He made an active choice to be a part of this regime. He wasn’t brainwashed or used against his will; he fucking chose this, regardless of how nonsensical it is.
There is literally nothing they can do to make this right again, except apologize and pull the entire comic and say that it was in extremely poor taste and that they’re going to disregard it.
So they’ve written him into a corner yet they still want me to read it. Why would I? What is left for me? To watch as someone that I’ve loved and admired, who apparently is a Nazi in disguise, kill and destroy all my other favorites? Am I supposed to watch the epitome of good and justice and the ideal/belief that we can do better, try to build up a white supremist ideal? Am I supposed to root for him and the other racists?
Apparently, yes. I’m supposed to read it and see what happens.
I’m going to make this very clear: I don’t fucking care what happens. That’s where Spencer and Brevoort have miscalculated. As far as I’m concerned, and clearly many, manyothers, knowing Captain America is a Nazi, in whatever way and for whatever reasons, is more than enough for me to never touch it with a fucking ten foot pole. At this point it doesn’t fucking matter if it’s retconned; Steve is tainted now and there’s no getting out that damned spot.
So all you who are saying just give it chance, please shut it. I honestly hope no one spends any money on them at all. I would love to see if fail spectacularly.
The other thing that’s enraging is that they don’t even fucking realize the implications. I myself own probably at least a dozen Captain America shirts. They’re tainted for me now. Am I supposed to wear them while feeling like I’m sporting a nice swastika across my chest? (Tweet that says this.)
That’s basically what they’ve done and they don’t even seem to realize it, or worse care: they made the most iconic symbol for America and Justice into a Nazi symbol. Especially at a time where there’s so much fucking hate in the world, you’re going to make one of the only consistently good and honest characters into someone that supports that?
There’s tons of children out there who idolize Captain America as he is. How are you going to continue selling his merchandise when what you’ll be doing is advocating the Nazi ideals? Are you going to pull all the t-shirts and costumes and action figures? You’re going to have to, unless you want to explain to the parents of the world why you’re making toys of Nazis for young children. Are you going to stop a little kid wearing a Captain America shirt and explain to them what it means now? It doesn’t mean good and fun and heroic; it means evil, hateful, and villainous.
You see, Captain America is bigger than the comics. It’s bigger than this stupid fucking plot twist. He obviously is as shown by this outrage. He doesn’t just belong to the comic book readers or the film watchers, he belongs to everyone.
Apart from all of that, you need to take into account the antisemitic-ness of this entire debacle. Captain America was literally created by two Jewish Men, Jack Kirby and Joe Simon, to be a response to all the Nazi and Hitler propaganda as well as all the antisemitism that was happening all over the country (and world). And you’re going to take that legacy and piss all over it? Not only the creators themselves, but the person Steve was and what he stood for for over seventy years? I’m not going to delve much deeper into this because I am not Jewish and don’t feel it’s my place to be a mouthpiece, but if you don’t see how disrespectful, hurtful, wrong, and disgusting this is, there’s literally nothing I can say that will help you transform from the human garbage you are.
This idea that you need to make your characters “bad” to be interesting is again, lazy fucking writing. You couldn’t come up with any good story? I could think up so many that would not desecrate his entire existence.
So you want him to go dark? Easy. Fucking show it. Give me the Steve who’s tired of loosing and not making as much progress as his enemies, as HYDRA. Show Steve slowly starting to compromise his ideals because he thinks and sees it as being for the greater good. Show Steve’s beliefs slowly morphing into the ends justifying the means and every time we’re on Cap’s side because we still trust his judgment; we still know that he’s trying to do good but it’s not as simple as it was. Things are not black and white and Steve’s not the best as the gray areas. Show me a Steve who’s starting to live in that gray area, always excusing himself and having others going to bat for him because he knows that he’s making a difference.
Show me a Steve who’s finally confronting Red Skull or another member of HYDRA and Steve going, “I’m not going to let you do this.”
And them responding,” You already have. We couldn’t have asked for a better agent.”
Show Steve feeling outraged because he would never! But he had. All those times he bent the rules, crossed the line, did something he wouldn’t do, it allowed HYDRA to get further and further into his mind, his heart. He opened the door and they were able to wriggle through. Show me a Steve who’s wrestling with this and the guilt and the desire to break free and I will read that shit up like there’s no tomorrow.
But turning him into a HYRDA agent, a Nazi for shock value with no understanding of his character of the implications you’ve caused, is bullshit and I’m not standing for it. I hope you all don’t either.
First and foremost, make sure it’s about said superhero and not someone else.
I’ve said from the announcement that Cap 3 was titled “Civil War” that I was irritated. With every casting announcement, I got a little more disheartened. There’s just not time for a proper story when you have that many people involved.
But the absolute last person whose story should be cut for time is the main character. Honestly, thinking about it, Steve didn’t really make any impressions on me during this film. I know that he was there and I know he argued against the Accords and raised some really good points, and had that fight with Iron Man in Siberia, but other than that…I don’t really remember him.
That’s not good.
But I need to make this organized. (Somewhat anyway)
First things first: They should have had two separate movies. Captain America 3 and Civil War (or Avengers: Civil War). They needed to have more on-screen time to develop the Accords, why they were being put in place, how they were being put in place, and what they all entailed.
As it stands, they came out of nowhere for me and didn’t make a lot of sense given the context of the fights and destruction and especially within the scale. What I mean by that is that the destruction caused by the Avengers was monumentally less than the destruction that would have been caused had the Avengers not been there.
New York would have been nuked off the map if the Avengers hadn’t been there and Tony hadn’t flown the missile into space. So obliterating an entire city/state was acceptable damage, but the damage caused by the aliens attacking and the Avengers trying to stop them is not.
D.C. had a massive amount of structural damage, but again, compared to the millions of people those hellicarriers were planning on killing, it seems like a better trade off.
Sokovia. This one is 100% Tony’s fault and he deserves some sort of blame for this. He was the one arrogant enough to think that he knows best for the entire world. That’s an argument that holds some weight. But again, should the Avengers have just sat out and let Ultron destroy millions?
Lagos…It was a terrible tragedy and awful and the Avengers should have been shown to stay and help. I mean, Steve said he was running into the building but we don’t actually see it? Still, they tried to minimize the damage and they successfully stopped Crossbones from releasing a biological weapon.
All of these instances, while sad and terrible, are the unfortunate consequences of war. Besides the fact, if these are the only instances in four years, seems like a pretty good average to me?
Besides all of that, the Avengers up until this point have always worked directly under and with SHIELD. So…maybe Lagos was the only true example of the Avengers running around and doing whatever they wanted. But still, a lot less destruction that any other movie. (I’m not saying it’s justified, but these arguments Ross made were half-hearted at best and completely illogical at worst.)
You know what would have made this argument hold more weight? Is if we, the audience, had been able to see public reaction. All we got is Ross saying that some people call them vigilantes. But how many and who? When did that start? Is it a small group or a large majority? Are the people of the world/the US getting into debates over twitter about this? Has it been brought up on major networks? We have no idea. All we can go off of is Ross’s word and to be honest, I don’t trust that guy at all.
(Side note: they could have used this entire plot and allowed it to be bullshit it was by having Ross as the one behind the scenes pulling all these strings because he’s still pissed off that Brue got from him. But to use it as a full-blown plot without developing it to the extent they needed to for it to make sense, makes it really difficult to follow along.)
Okay, so the movies they should have made before I get too far down the rabbit hole (Don’t worry, I’m going to be writing something about the fact that this movie felt like Tony’s movie more than anyone else’s and that is incredibly frustrating as a person who went to see Captain America, but that’s for a later time.)
Movie #1: Captain America: Out of Time or some other cleverly titled thing like Winter’s Children
This movie is all about Steve’s recovery and trying to find Bucky because that is the most important thing to him right now.
I typed out this incredibly long and detailed post about the movie that this should have been, but it was like 3k and I don’t think anyone would have wanted to read all that. So I deleted it to make it shorter. (I can put it up if anyone wants to read it.)
Basically, this movie would revolve around Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers. The plot that had so much potential but nothing really came of it, as the main antagonists. Crossbones would be a distraction and a way to show how almost desperate Steve’s become trying to find Bucky, or at least some sort of word from him that he’s okay and not recaptured. Unfortunately Crossbones escapes so his efforts are to no avail, except for the taunts Rumlow throws at Steve with his knowledge of Bucky.
You could have Rhodey clearly concerned by this behavior because it’s a slippery slope from capturing the bad guys to revenge and he knows what the public’s been saying lately. (Also, side-note, Rhodey wasn’t even in Lagos…so this would be a perfect way to say that there were some council meetings he went to with Tony. Sprinkling in Civil War and showing that Steve doesn’t have time to care about politics.)
It’s while at Peggy’s funeral where the bombing takes place at another location and Steve has to get there because he knows Bucky wouldn’t have done this. And that it’s got to be a way for them to try and force Bucky out of hiding. So everything happens the way it does, including both T’Chaka and T’Challa’s introductions (and T’Chaka’s death), as well as bringing Sharon back, but not to give that awful Eulogy that felt creepy and really disrespectful to Peggy.
The group fights to get to Bucky as quickly as they can and they would have gotten away with it if it hadn’t been for the guy who likes cats! Darn you T’Challa! (Just kidding, I love you.) But then they’re taking to the facility and Bucky is triggered and they all need to get out of this tight spot.
Bucky comes to and tells them of Zemo’s plan to use the other Winter Soldiers for the destruction of the Avengers. Sharon arrives to give them back their confiscated stuff and tells them that the Authorities are on the lookout for them because they want to bring the Winter Soldier in. Steve refuses to allow that and him and Bucky have a long overdue talk about Bucky’s guilt and Steve trying to tell him that it wasn’t his fault and that he didn’t chooseto do those things; HYDRA did when they forced him to be their weapon. Bucky doesn’t look convinced but also knows how stubborn Steve is so he drops it for now.
Steve, Sam, Natasha, and Bucky all sneak away to the airport to try and borrow a plane—cut to a cute moment when Sam asks since when does Captain America think about stealing a plane? Since Nazi Germany, Bucky and Natasha both answer—and they’re on their way. Of course they thank Sharon and she promises to give them updates when she can, but she doesn’t want to risk her job. Steve understands and they leave on good terms, with the door open in the future for this romance if it plays out that way. But remember, Peggy’s funeral was like two days ago…so not the time for romance to start. Especially one with her niece.
They get to Siberia and are instantly attacked by the Winter Soldiers. They are going to lose this fight because they’re not as powerful as they think they are. Bucky’s terrified because all Zemo has to do is say the magic words and he’d be fighting against Steve again. It’s terrible and frightening and Steve’s telling Bucky to get out of here because his safety is more important than Steve’s own. They’re able to lock down two of them and Steve tells Sam and Natasha to get out because this isn’t their fight but they refuse because they’re in this with them, they made their choices.
Bucky sneaks away and runs into T’Challa talking with Zemo and watching T’Challa defend Bucky and capture Zemo. They have a strange stand-off when T’Challa asks him where he is going. Isn’t the fight behind you? So Bucky and T’Challa return and help Steve and Company finish the fight. Of course, not before the self-destruct codes in the Winter Soldier’s brains are activated. Bucky can only watch helplessly as they basically kill themselves right in front of them. They didn’t complete their mission; this is the fail-safe in place.
Shaken, Bucky tries to run away again because there’s no telling what could happen in the future but Steve tells him that he’s safer with people he trusts. Now that they know the codes are still there, they can work on finding ways to get them out. Starting with finding that red book that Zemo just smiles about when they ask him about it.
Cut to the mid-credit scene where a masked-man grabs it from a cache inside an old abandoned facility. The camera pans up to see Crossbones. This entire movie would have the sprinklings of conflict and the beginning of the Accords, but maybe subtly so not to detract from the movie and also showing how much time it actually took for them to get into place.
Movie #2: Marvel: Civil War
Even if they’d changed nothing about the movie, just renaming it already makes it a better movie. No one goes in expecting a Cap movie; they expect an ensemble one.
The opening scene of this movie would be Tony and Rhodey in meetings with Ross discussing the Accords.
Rhodey: You know we have to tell Cap about this. Tony: We need to see how this plays out first. There’s no guarantee that this will happen. Rhodey doesn’t look convinced, but lets it go.
The rest of the movie takes place 18 months (or so) later. The Avengers are still trying to fight, but Wanda’s been sitting out a lot because there’s been so many articles and news reports written about her and whether someone with her magnitude of power should be allowed to even fight. What happens if something goes wrong? They’re scattered all over her desk when Steve comes in to check on her.
This is when Ross arrives to drop the bombshell on them that the Accords are happening and they all need to get on board. Steve argues that they should have been given much more time than three days to determine things and Ross looks at Tony who’d been at every meeting, who decided not to tell them anything. Probably because he’s feeling the guilt that that woman heaped on him for killing her son.
Tony and Steve get into an argument on why Tony thought the rest of them needed to be kept in the dark and Tony tells him that he did what needed to be done to protect them as much as he could. If he hadn’t, if they’d fought, they would have pushed it through that much quicker without any of the things that Tony fought for.
Steve gets a message on his phone and he leaves, saying that he’ll think about it and is sarcastic about the fact that he’ll let him know within three business days. The rest of the group continues their discussions and you can see the way they are all leaning.
Steve meets up with Bucky who’d been on his own again, but keeping in touch with Steve and a fair bit of help from T’Challa, while doing his own research into removing the code-words from his head and trying to track down the notebook. There’s a conversation where Bucky tells him that he has to do this alone, he has to try and do this alone and Steve’s like but you don’t have to. He tells Bucky that he doesn’t need to punish himself anymore. They’re interrupted by an angry Crossbones who fights but is ultimately captured by Sharon Carter’s team. They had received a tip on the whereabouts of the Winter Soldier and had to come. She takes Crossbones into custody while the rest of her group takes Steve and Bucky.
Of course, they end up meeting up with Tony, Natasha, and Rhodey who’ve been at the UN trying to be the public face of the Accords. Tony and Steve have a conversation very similar to the one that they have in Civil War when Tony tries to get Steve to sign the Accords. He almost agrees until Tony mentions Wanda’s imprisonment.
Tony tries to smooth things over with the UN and Ross while Natasha and Steve had a conversation about how it’ll be easier to steer with one hand on the wheel. Steve replies with, “But we have no guarantee we’ll even be allowed to drive.”
Sam arrives to get him and Bucky out of there with his wings, and his little friend. Scott is there and scurries up to CAPTAIN AMERICA and tells him of the plan and how they were all here to get him out. They can’t imprison CAPTAIN AMERICA. (Sorry, Scott’s love for Cap was hilarious.)
Cap and Bucky narrowly escape, but Tony and Company are right on their heels. Tony recruits T’Challa whose father had publically supported the Accords before he died—It’s why T’Challa feels so torn in this movie. He needs to live up to his father’s legacy and be the ruler for his people, but he can’t help but feel a little guilty for going after Steve when he himself doesn’t fully agree with the Accords. They have to come up with a plan and little Peter Parker tries to get involved and Tony sends him away because he’s a literal child.
They have their showdown in the Airport and Steve and Bucky have a more important mission: they have to get that red book. Steve’s friends decide to take the fall for Steve so they could escape and they do, with the help of Natasha who doesn’t agree with the way things are playing out.
Steve and Bucky escape to where they believe the red book is hiding while Tony tries to clean up this mess that’s been made. Natasha throws some serious shade at him and how he’s the one that needs to be held accountable for his actions and not Steve. Steve’s just doing what he thinks is right, and he’s always done that and stood by those choices. You’re hiding behind the UN and shifting the blame. If that’s all you’re going to do, why even bother being here? This is where we can have the emotional breakdown for Tony about losing Pepper and not knowing how to stop and he’s just trying to protect everyone. And Natasha can say to him, You need to stop trying to make decisions for everyone else. Or something along those lines before storming out.
Cut to the Avengers in lock-up that’s interspersed with Steve and Bucky’s hunt and Sam saying that Cap will get us out here. You know that he will.
Steve and Bucky discover the Red Book and are faced with Sharon, who’s refusing to let them through. Turns out, Crossbones had been able to read the whole thing and learned the trick of hypnosis and triggers and was able to use that on Sharon while on the car-ride to prison. She shoots Steve and instantly comes back to herself and doesn’t know what to do.
Steve knows he’s dying because this isn’t like the last time where they were near a medical facility, but he doesn’t say anything to Sharon. He tells her to go and find some sort of helicopter and she’d take him to a hospital. Steve has his goodbyes with Bucky and passes him the SHIELD and tells him to run because he won’t be able to protect him. So Bucky runs off with Steve’s shield, the red book, and his grief, while Sharon comes back to take Steve.
Steve tells Sharon to take him where Ross is.
Ross comes into the prison and taunts the other Avengers with the news that Steve’s turning himself in for their freedom; he even goes so far as to force Ross to publically announce it, write in a contract, and send it to Tony. Steve has refused to come out of the helicopter until his friends had been able to board their own, private one and get out of this place. After they leave, Steve stumbles out bloody and dying and gets the final word in with Ross.
Two potential endings here:
1. Steve dying and Tony saying that all this wasn’t worth it. He was just trying to protect them all
2. Steve not dying and staying in lock-up and asking Tony if all this was worth it.
All this sets up for the new Avengers that are under Bucky’s command now.
****
Okay, that one came out pretty long too. And one day I’m going to write both of those stories/screenplays because I stand by them and would like to see them fleshed out more.
All that being said, I’m not sure if Marvel even had much interest in this movie apart from including a ton of characters. So the brief list of things I would change (and how) from Captain America: Civil War:
Steve needs to be the main character –> So instead of pitting him against Tony, maybe use Natasha who we’ve seen him have a relationship with and we can see that they both still love each other and it’s killing them both to be on opposite sides. I know the comics have Tony vs. Steve, but it only works because Tony and Steve are actually close in the comics. MCU Tony and Steve barely have any semblance of a relationship.
Sharon and Steve’s kiss the day after Peggy’s funeral. The timing was awful and it was awkward and then we never hear about her or from her again. –> Use Sharon for the bad-ass Agent you keep telling me she is without showing me. Show her risking her job to help Steve because it’s right and that’s what her Aunt Peggy would do. Have Steve and Sharon connect on a way that’s not about Peggy if you’re going to have them be romantic. And finally, if they must kiss, do it towards the end of the film when we’ve seen them together for a while
Tony’s emotional arc trumping everything else. I will forever be bitter about this. There will be at least two posts about this in the future –> His pain should never have been at the center of Steve’s movie. It was his emotional responses that drove this movie, yet we’re told that Steve’s the one acting irrationally. If you’re going the emotional route for Tony then at the very least call him on it
Making sure Steve was at the center and making sure we know what he’s thinking and feeling –> I honestly have no idea what Steve really thought during this entire movie because his opinion and thoughts were basically nonexistent
Giving Bucky some form of closure—another thing I’m going to have to write about –> Don’t lock him away/freeze him away until the time comes for him to be important to the plot again. All it’s done is make it clear that Bucky will not be able to be developed. And if you must do this, then you needed to give him more screen time before it happened to see how much he’s really struggling. And a hug with Steve wouldn’t have been amiss, or you know, an actual conversation
Not allowing Tony to be a hypocrite who gets to walk away completely unscathed –> The only negative thing that happened to Tony was Rhodey getting injured. Rhodey’s injury wasn’t even about Rhodey. It was about Tony. Let that sink in for a minute. Ultron and Sokovia were Tony’s fault and he turned that around on the Avengers because ???, he recruits a literal child to fight in this potentially deadly war without telling him of the real dangers nor ratting him out to Ross and the Accords people like he was supposed to, seems angry that Clint is mad at him for getting him locked up and tells the entire group of people watching about Clint’s secret family, decides that he needs to go behind Ross to help Steve since the government’s not going to help, and finally turns on Steve/Bucky when he finds out the truth about his parents and tries to murder them both. But what happens to him? He gets to go back and lead the Avengers, work with Ross, see Rhodey’s fine, and get Steve’s apologies, even though Steve didn’t really do anything? It’s bullshit and has not real emotional depth
Adding more time/develop to the Accords so they make sense –> As it stands, they’re nonsensical at best. Here are some posts about that. XXX
Basically, at the heart, it was a badly developed story with too many moving parts with no one knowing exactly where to put them.
The more I think about it, the more the “family friendly” carnage in superheroes movies bothers me. I just stumbled across a post lauding Marvel for saving every civilian in AOU, and I’m sorry, but there is no possible way the scale of widespread destruction in that movie wouldn’t have left a massive trail of casualties all across the world, no matter how many they managed to save.
It’s the same problem in Superman’s epic battle against Zod in Man of Steel*. But while the DCU is almost at its starting point these days, Marvel has an established franchise that I think is worth examining.
The superheroes movies we’re used to don’t show the inevitable death toll unless it’s a general pan over of the villains’ victims. These movies are mostly rated PG-13, so they can’t really show more than that, or that’s the usual apology. Instead we get heroic montages of the heroes breaking through ranks of evil, often faceless and clearly identifiable enemies, like aliens, masked Nazis or robots. Heroes capture the bad guys, and if the bad guys die, it’s often by their own incompetence or by indirect action, or simply because they forced the hero into using deadly force. It’s deserved, and it’s always framed as just.
Nevermind that simple physics would indicate that each Avenger has killed a vast amount of human beings in each Marvel film by now, both by sheer careless use of force and by direct intent and action.
i don’t want to turn it into a Marvel vs DC thing, because in our heart of hearts we all know that they are both money-grubbing trash who will put their profit margins before anything else.
but if we’re going to talk about accountability in superhero movies, then DCCU at least has consistency, and does it in a way that’s consistent with its own internal narrative.
What falls apart with CA:CW and accountability isn’t just its shaky plot or its half-baked politics, it’s the fact that Marvel has spent years disabusing us of the notion that superheroes need to be held accountable.
One of the most iconic lines from BvS was Luthor’s “do you know what the biggest lie in America is? That power can be innocent.” That was a jab at Marvel, that was a jab at what Marvel’s been selling us with its cinematic universe.
I completely agree with this analysis. I actually wrote a bit of meta on this issue on the MCU a year ago (this thing that nobody read), before BvS and Civil War premiered, looking forward to these issues being acknowledged in superhero films. In light of the last two films of each franchise, I gotta say:
A message to the comic book ‘fans‘ who are defending Hydra Cap by saying “they’ll change it back.“
Imagine this: You go to a nice restaurant. Five stars, great reviews, lot of history, staff are friendly, an ideal place to eat. Then, one day, a new chef decides to make a change to a popular recipe. You try it, and it gives you food poisoning. As well as everyone else who eats it.
Even if the chef changes the recipe back to normal so it’s no longer bad, that doesn’t change the fact that they gave you food poisoning. You wouldn’t forget that, would you? Well, you shouldn’t. And neither should they.
I went to see Captain America: There’s Even More Punching This Timewith@rostheriveter today and it was lovely, but also this thought occurred to me:
Why make a big deal out of Tony’s turn-your-memories-into-cinema tech in the beginning of the film and then never mention it again? I get that the purpose of that scene is to remind us all that Tony is still fucked up about his parents. But why not make it serve two purposes?
We all know there shouldn’t be a video of the Winter Soldier killing Howard and Maria Stark. There’s no reason for there to be a security camera in the middle of the woods. And even if there were a security camera there, the singularly highly trained so-legendary-he’s-somehow-also-a-ghost best-ever HYDRA assassin who was specifically instructed not to be seen is not going to do a double murder on camera, then flounce right up to the camera like Beyoncé in Lemonade so that it gets a perfect shot of his face, and then destroy it.
Like. Wouldn’t he case the joint first? Or whatever it’s called, don’t look at me, I don’t do crimes. I’m just saying, the fucking Winter Soldier would probably have the powers of observation to be like “Oh, a camera. In the woods for some reason. I’ma shoot it to preserve my status as the world’s best super-secret ghost-slash-legend, and also so that HYDRA tortures me slightly less when I return to them. Bang. A-murderin’ we go!”
BUT I DIGRESS.
Wouldn’t it be super cool if Zemo stole Tony’s memory-projection machine, and then somehow forced Bucky to use the tech to project his memory of 1991, and that was how Zemo tore the Avengers apart?
Advantages:
Gets rid of the ridiculous “security camera in the woods” thing.
The memory would be from the Winter Soldier’s perspective, which provides a cool visual opportunity to explore both how the Winter Soldier saw the world and how Bucky remembers it–is it perfectly clear? Is it choppy? Is it vivid? Is it extra super horrifying? (Yes, probably.)
Tony’s tech would come back! I’m really interested in the intersection of memory and technology and these movies are always teasing me with little bits and then never following through.
Everything about it is way more painful, and I’m into that.
she hit me with this right as we were walking out of the theater and then was like ‘so do you want to get coffee?’ and so i was trying to process this idea that both made TOTAL FUCKING SENSE but also was EXTRA HORRIFYING as we tried to figure out if there was anywhere nearby we could get a drink and talk.
(there is Not Much in Sturbridge, y’all, except a movie theater that is halfway between the two of us)
(well, there is Old Sturbridge Village but that’s not really the kind of place you go to have Serious Superhero Emotional Overloads)
Some people take their coffee with cream or sugar. I take mine with HORRIFYING EMOTIONAL PAIN.
