I was thinking about the Mesopotamia scene, in particular when one of the Unicorns decides to leg it;
Nope, this isn’t about how no one listens to Crowley, or how (adorably) Crowley hasn’t the foggiest about mammalian reproduction (and, I mean, I know I said ‘meta’ but I’m not sure this post even qualifies as a meta tbh).
Everyone and their Granny knows David Tennant is Scottish.
Something that everyone and their Granny might not know is that the national animal of Scotland is the Unicorn.
“…God does not pay dice with the universe. I play an ineffable game of my own devising. For everyone else, it’s like playing poker in a pitch-dark room, for infinite stakes, with a dealer who won’t tell you the rules and who smiles all the time.“
I feel like we don’t give God enough credit for telling us exactly who she is with this line. Yes, it’s funny and said in a breezy Frances McDormand voice, but it’s also kind of terrifying. That game does not sounds like a fun game for anyone but God, for whom it’s probably hilarious. And I think this really sets the tone for God in Good Omens (the TV series, at least).
Good Omens opens up the possibility that God is cruel. She is, at the very least, indifferent to a lot of human suffering, and is sometimes in the business of causing it. Her punishments are harsh, indiscriminate and irreversible. This is a God who drowns children to make a point. She admits that her creations fear her, and does not seem to have a problem with that. She’s capricious with damnation and forgiveness. (Crowley fell for asking a few questions and hanging out with the wrong crowd; Aziraphale straight up gives his flaming sword away and that’s fine.) She doesn’t seem to mind that her angels behave horrifically, from mundane bullying up to summary execution.
She is not merciful. She provides no answers, not even to the faithful. She does not come to the aid of those who call on her. Crowley tells Aziraphale that he shouldn’t count on God to come and fix things, and he’s right. At times, God seems downright sadistic. (Think about the plant scene as some kind of traumatic reenactment of Crowley being cast out of Heaven. Then think about the fact that God herself is narrating this scene in a tone of detached amusement. That’s fucked up!)
One of the reasons that Crowley is such a sympathetic character is that he asks the same questions that any person who has both faith and compassion would ask. (The idea that a demon is the moral center of the story is a think for another post.) If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, why is there so much suffering in the world? Is God actively causing the suffering? Why? Does she just not care? Why doesn’t she make it stop?
@inthroughthesunfroof reply: You said what I’ve been thinking, just, much more beautifully. I don’t know what Pratchett and Gaiman’s religious beliefs are, beyond both having a strong humanist streak. Good Omens doesn’t read like an athiest work, it reads like someone wrestling with the fundamental question that all Christians run into: Given an all-knowing and all-powerful God whom we are told literally is love, why does suffering exist? Why does this suffering exist? How can our God be so cruel?
It’s a question that has broken many people’s faith, including mine. Good Omens doesn’t pretend to answer why, but it does answer so now what with a resoundingly humanist perspective. Whether or not God loves us, whatever that means, the only reasonable way for us to live is to love each other.
It’s a surprisingly biblical answer. Matthew 22:36-40:
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a]38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
If the God of the Bible is real, I don’t know if They’ll forgive a loss of faith. I hope They won’t be too disappointed if people who fail to follow the first commandment hang onto the second.
@ilarualreply: This is such a good post, and really articulates a lot of the thoughts that serve as the backdrop for basically all my readings of the lead characters of GO (both the immortals and the humans). The point is not: is God there? will God save us? Instead, the point is: it is imperative that we assume that there will be no divine intervention, and that it is up to us to work our own interventions.
It’s interesting to me that the human characters do not seem to give a fuck about God. Adam and the Them care about their world, and they care about protecting it regardless of what anyone, divine or otherwise, has to say about it. Anathema, likewise, isn’t interested in anyone’s guidance but Agnes’s. As for Tracy and Shadwell and Newt… they’re just along for the ride, they’re not worried about big theological questions. They’re just humans, messy, lovely, ridiculous humans who are just Doing Their Best when they find themselves in extraordinary circumstances. And all of them have no truck with any Great Plan, whether it’s God’s or anyone else’s— the human characters just want their planet left in one piece. Humanity’s responsible for wrecking it, and humanity’ll be responsible for fixing it, thank you very much. It’s only Heaven and Hell who have any real investment in what God wants or doesn’t want. Squabbling children who are still, after millennia, vying for Mom’s attention no matter how silent and indifferent She may be.
And as for our show-stealing leads…
Obviously Aziraphale’s entire journey over the course of the story is about finally giving up the ghost and accepting what he’s known to be true, in his heart of hearts, for awhile now: God isn’t coming to help you. God isn’t going to tell you what the right thing to do is. You need to do for yourself, you need to speak for yourself, you need to take action, because if you don’t, then who will? Aziraphale’s story is about recognizing that maybe God really does have a plan for all this, but maybe it’s cruel and unjust. And, not knowing what the plan is, if there is one, it is imperative that we step up and act with radical kindness, because to do otherwise is unthinkable.
Crowley… well… OP said it all. Crowley understands this. He is the only character in the entire series that actually addresses God directly, and we know She hears him. She sees, She hears, and there’s a distinct possibility that Crowley and Aziraphale were Her answer all along, but whether that’s the case or not, She’s not telling. And that indifferent silence? Crowley knows that’s cruelty, and that’s why Crowley so thoroughly rejects the false dichotomy of Heaven and Hell. He knows, has known for millennia, that it’s all bullshit. And he knows Aziraphale knows it too, it’s just a matter of getting to admit it.
In the novel, we’re left with absolute silence from God. Maybe God is there, maybe not, but ultimately it doesn’t really matter because we’ve got to take care of each other regardless. But in the show? God is there, God is watching, and God is a smug asshole.
It would be easy to confuse omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence with perfection. But God, it is said, created humanity in Her own image, and if you look at what humanity is like, capable of both extraordinary good and extraordinary evil… well, I think that says just as much about God as it does about us.
#god is human but on a cosmic scale #is basically my praxis both within the context of GO and within the context of just like… religion in general #either god is imperfect & fallible or god is unceasingly cruel #it’s up to the individual to decide which interpretation they can live with
@pisces-atdcomment: also worth noting the somewhat humorous line in the end of the series, in which gabriel states “god does not play games with the universe” and crowley responds “where have you been?” crowley and aziraphale have been living on earth for so long that they’ve SEEN things. think about it: they were the only ones actually THERE right before God literally drowned everyone except for Noah and his family. they’ve seen the type of things god is responsible for. every time aziraphale says “god’s plans are ineffable”, crowley is right there to jump in and ask “why?” which honestly is probably what got him thrown out of Heaven in the first place. eventually, aziraphale stops saying that. he never truly turns his back on heaven, not until the very end, but that’s not because he LOVES heaven or even god. he keeps his foot in the door out of fear. and crowley never truly aligns with hell, but he’d rather be on his own side with aziraphale than ever go back to heaven and work for god again. being on earth for so long, crowley and aziraphale side with the humans more than anyone else. they question hell and heaven, and more importantly, they question god. there’s literally a scene in crowleys office when he’s talking upwards, toward god, and asking “why? why does it have to be this way?” the angels and demons never ask, because for the most part they don’t CARE. the ineffable/great plan is just about a power struggle to them. also worth mentioning that god, in this situation, is about as chaotic as a 13 year old angsts fanfic writer. loving the beauty of suffering for the sake of the story, loving the heart wrenching plot twists, loving to panic and fear and chaos caused by her “ineffable” plan. fine in writing, evil when playing with the lives of real beings. but god has never seen it that way, in the same way angels and demons don’t value human life. I mean, they don’t really give a shit about killing 7 billion humans (not to mention the plants and animals) and of course, to mirror the scene in crowleys office where he’s speaking towards the ceiling to god, there’s a scene later where aziraphale literally calls god and asks to speak with her directly. both of them asking the same thing: “why? does there really need to be a war? can we stop this?” in conclusion: god is cruel and aziraphale and crowley are the only two on either side who understand this concept.
Alright, listen up kids, I did not endure 10 years of Catholic school and still end up a gay atheist for you guys to miss the absolute brilliance of this scene.
Do you know what is considered the absolute worst sin? I’m not talking the seven deadly sins or even mortal sin. I’m talking eternal sins, the unforgivable sins.
The absolute worst sin is believing that one’s evil is beyond God’s forgiveness.
Let that sink in for a moment.
It sounds crazy. How could it be worse than murder? Genocide?
Because it is a rejection of God.
The central belief of Christianity is that God IS love. This love is so powerful that it brought everything into existence. It is free and unconditional and infinite. Believing that your evil cannot be forgiven is not believing in what God is.
Now, unforgivable sounds like a contradiction. If God is all giving and this love is free and unconditional, how could any sin not be forgiven? This comes down to the nature of love.
Love must be freely chosen. It cannot be coerced. And so the only thing stopping someone from existing in that love is choosingto be separate from it.
Crowley didn’t fall because of questions or hanging out with the wrong people. God didn’t smite him and send him to the pits of the underworld because Crowley was unsure about the divine plan. He fell because HE believed he was unforgivable.
@mylastvowreply: Following that line of thought (and I very much support the arguments OP makes here aka Crowley didn’t fall because of questions or hanging out with the wrong people… He fell because HE believed he was unforgivable.), is that also the reason why Aziraphale didn’t fall?
I mean Zira did a number of things that were clearly against the rules of heaven. He gave away his flaming sword first chance he gets and he lies about it to every one (including God, excluding Crowley btw). He fraternises with the enemy, going on clandestine meetings with Crowley. And we know heaven knows about these meetings. They have pics and Michael is even asking to look into this matter. He conspires with the demon Crowley to stop Armageddon and so on. Lots of things that could get you cast out of heaven if you ask me. Lots of sins here.
But he never falls. He isn’t cast out of heaven for his sins, for his doubts or his questions. Because Zira firmly believes in God’s love and in forgiveness.
I tend to see Crowley not so much thinking that he is unforgivable as such, but rather, thinking that God won’t forgive him, that she can’t forgive him. That is, it isn’t a self-esteem problem of thinking that he is so evil and awful that even a loving God can’t forgive him. Rather, I think Crowley doubts God’s love itself. It is God who is at fault for not being loving enough. He seems to see God as quite manipulative and uncaring not loving at all. We see his questioning multiple times, and he is always questioning the morally of God’s plan eg “you can’t kill kids” or “you shouldn’t test them to destruction”. It reminds me of the old philosophical argument of the problem of evil. In essence, the argument goes - evil exists in the world- children die etc. therefore it can’t be the case that God exists, is all powerful and is perfectly loving. An all powerful, perfectly loving God wouldn’t let kids die. Except, Crowley already knows for certain that God exists and is all powerful and is literally doing the killing of kids. Therefore - her love must be questioned. So, yeah I absolutely agree that he fell for doubting God’s love. But I think he actually directly questioned her love itself, he didn’t get there via low self-worth. That’s why Aziraphale’s “I forgive you” doesn’t seem to affect Crowley, doesn’t seem to be personally meaningful to him. At least, to me it seems that he’s just frustrated by it, frustrated that Aziraphale doesn’t get it. He isn’t asking for redemption from God or Aziraphale. He’s asking Aziraphale to stop playing by Heaven’s rules and get in the damn car. I hope this makes sense!
@anotherhappydinosaurreply: Yes yes yes! This is what I meant. Not that it was a self worth issue, but that believing that she isn’t completely all-loving was doubting what she is. I just think it’s a fascinating dichotomy because both Aziraphale and Crowley are questioning the plan, both are acting against their superiors’ orders, both have done a lot of things I’d classify as morally gray, but one has full faith in infinite love, indiscriminate love. And to me, Crowley talking to God and asking these questions and saying that he didn’t mean to fall shows that he hasn’t quite given up entirely on the idea of God’s love, that he wants to be convinced that her love is unfailing and unconditional. It’s the whole faith/reason paradox, which is a whole other post.
And you’re totally right that the “I forgive you” itself was a bit of a throwaway moment that didn’t mean much to Crowley, but I see its power in revealing this fundamental difference between Crowley and Aziraphale.
I love this commentary! I wrote this post in a fit of inspiration last night without fully editing it and I think you touched on a lot of things that were there in my head and never made it to the page :P
@letsveganlovecomment: I thought he only thought he was unforgivable AFTER his fall, though.
Let’s estimate how heavy is the rock that Aziraphale is lifting in the garden of eden’ scene. Based on the footage we have, I will approximate its shape to a trapezoidal base prism (more specifically, its base is a trapezoid rectangle).
To discover the base measurements, I will use this scene (because is the one where he is closer to the stone, minimizing camera effects) and Mr. Sheen height (1,78m) to do some pixel measurements.
Some math later and using the fact that two edges of the rock accompanies the junction of the larger stones I managed to get the height and smaller base of the rock, but I still needed the other side and the bigger base.
Forthis, I measured the angle shown. With these informations and trigonometry, I concluded these are the base’s measurements. Now, for its depth (this one was hard and probably the source of possible errors), we need some considerations.
Based on other scenes from the wall, we can safely say that this stone does not represent its thickness. However, we can see the inside of the wall, which is made of three to five layers of pre cut blocks.
I am assuming, now, that Aziraphale’s stone has the depth equivalent of the first outside layer that we see, since antique stone constructions don’t use mortar and the piece could fairly “break” in that spot.
Thanks to our adorable Eve, we have a scene to make some pixel measurement using her hand as reference (an average woman hand has a length of 17,27cm) and I concluded that the stone’s length is 28cm.
Using the right volume formula, the result is V=0,03087m^3.
Now, we need to estimate its density. According to some proposed locations, the garden of eden is in southern Mesopotamia (now Iraq). Based on the book “Ancient Mesopotamian Materials and Industries: The Archaeological Evidence”-Peter Roger Stuart Moorey, the primary construction stones of this region is limestone and gypsum.
The density of limestone (the most probable one) is 2711kg/m^3, which results in a weight of 83,69kg for our little angel to lift.
To sum up, Aziraphale is lifting approximately 83,69kg (184,5 pounds) without using any knee technique and without even looking discomfortable. Maybe the buff angel we see in the storyboards is not so off, after all.
Yup. While Aziraphale dropped the buffness in order to be more cuddly he kept the strength :).
storyboard:
(btw. for completely unrelated reasons I googled how much David Tennant weighs. It’s 80 kg :) - less than the rock)
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(For scientific purposes - the remainder of the comments conveyed that
math skills are highly attractive,
Aziraphale being strong is highly attractive,
this fandom would like more fanfiction that features Crowley just getting picked up and carried away by the Angel in question, among other things)
@kayasurinreply: More importantly - that’s not a struggle. He’s moving normally. He’s not straining. He’s putting about the same amount of effort I do into a ten pound weight. Which means he can lift heavier stuff.
@jabberwockypie reply: This math is very impressive but I counter: Why would an embodied angel need to be buff to lift a heavy thing?
Crowley can drive a car that’s on fire because he Believes hard enough that he can.
I suggest that they just sort of take things like “how bodies work” as suggestions. He can lift it because he needs to, and because there’s no reason he feels he shouldn’t be able to. (And at certain points, angels are described as being thousands of meters tall. Presumably they’re a lot more *condensed* in a human-ish body, but why *shouldn’t* he be able to lift it? Theoretically wings that size shouldn’t allow for a human-sized being to fly, either, but they do, which suggests that there’s more to it than the simple capabilities of bones and muscles.)
After all, for all the food and wine they drink, I suspect they don’t use the bathroom either. (Would you poop or pee if you had the option to just kind of will it away into energy? ESPECIALLY if you had existed for thousands of years before the advent of indoor plumbing?)
@lynatireply: Well, book Crowley did have to get up in the middle of his decades-long nap to use the lavatory, but he may have just been too sleep muddled to remember that he didn’t *have* to.
Both the book and the show do make it clear that they aren’t limited by their physical corporations when they don’t want to be, but what is less clear is how limited they are when they aren’t actively ignores the laws of matter and physics and whatnot. Do they have physical limits that they have to be actively putting- and I know it’s a loaded phrase these days- an effort into in order to bypass, or are their bodies merely human-shaped suggestions?
Both canons mention discorporation, and how inconvenient it is, so it sounds that if they suffer massive damage to their physical selves they can’t just snap their remaining fingers and put that damage instantly to rights.
Honestly, I love the fact that we don’t have a single answer to what interpretation is “right,” because it gives us a much broader variety of narrative direction in fic whenever that question becomes a plot point.
Aziraphale getting beheaded by guillotine means his body was kaput, and he’s just stuck in heaven until he’s assigned a new one? …Yeah, sure, why not?
Aziraphale getting beheaded means he’s going to have to work quite a miracle to get his body working again, and making sure nobody notices him while he’s trying to get it done, how inconvenient; and what kind of words is heaven going to have with him over that? …Yeah, sure, why not?
Aziraphale getting beheaded means nothing as far as the physical side of his corporation is concerned because he can just re-arrange his matter around at will, BUT in his mind he’ll always KNOW that the discorporation happened, and the thought will just itch at him in the same way a stain miracle’d out of a jacket would. Oh, and his wonderful outfit would be well-past saving for the same reason; what an awful thought! …Yeah, sure, why not?
Aziraphale being able to lift that much weight because he can do whatever he wants via miracles or whatnot gives us one story; Aziraphale being able to lift that much weight because his corporation *naturally* has the ability to do that, no ignoring reality required, gives us a different set of Crowley’s kinks options to work with!
@rangeredactedreply: While I totally agree with the idea that they can do these feats because they believe they can, and reality shapes around that, first poster did some impressive math and research there! (which is so cool)
@artemis-argetlamreply: I do actually agree with the idea that things works just because they believe they will, it is their way of influencing the universe and Crowley strongly demonstrates that with driving, talking to plants, even giving personality to the bentley.
I just thought that would be cool to calculate the weight that Aziraphale is “ignoring” by simply not questioning his capacities to lift it.
In addition, Sandalphon is blocking the exit. And he and Gabriel are standing at complete 180 degree points with Aziraphale in the centre. This is a thing I have known sadistic interviewers to do: to deliberately sit (or stand) at such angles to the victim/interviewee that they can never have both interviewers in their eyeline at the same time. To make eye contact with one, you have to lose sight of the other. Normally I’ve seen it done with the two interviewers at 90 degrees, so the interviewee has to keep turning their head. This is even more cruel: Aziraphale has to turn his back on whomever is not speaking. It’s a deliberate tactic to make a victim more awkward and wrong-footed, and in this case, even physically vulnerable.
Yep. You’ve articulated what I was trying to get at with ‘’trap’’. You don’t block off the exits like that to have a polite conversation. You do it to threatensomebody.
It’s like they took the mob intimidation bit from the original book and turned it into something far more horrifying and with more weight for his character arc, because this is what gangsters do to scare people. imo Gabriel is fairly well aware of whats going on long before the surveillance photos come into it and he just likes watching Aziraphale squirm with anxiety over how much he knows, because he’s not stupid, he’s a sadistic bully.
And Aziraphale is playing the game so well. He tells himself he trusts them but he absolutely doesn’t. He smiles, he nods, he tells them nothing. He has a quick answer for the jibe about the evil smell. He shows zero reaction to their loud comments about pornography (react, and prove you’re more used to humans than to angels? That you find angels embarrassing now? That you know more about earth than the guy who stationed you there?). He’s covering his ass expertly—he knows how to defend himself. He’s watched angels fall.
Like don’t get me wrong, I like a good clueless boss as much as the next person. But that’s not Gabriel. Michael asks if Gabriel minds Michael following up through back channels and Gabriel plainly says “there are no back channels, Michael” and it’s not because Gabriel thinks there are no back channels, of course there fucking are, he’s been using them too. But how dare Michael bring them up so baldly. How dare Michael betray the ruse, and to his face like that. They’re the good guys, you know.
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@jacquez45 reply: this is one bit where I wish they’d left in something: in this scene, Crowley has literally snuck out when Gabriel & Sandalphon enter the shop. (In the script book, Aziraphale basically keeps them out of the back room until he sees that Crowley has gotten out, then invites them back.)
the reason I wish they’d left this in is that yes, Aziraphale clearly feels the threat in this scene, but he fucking brazens it out anyway, straight-up lying about the Jeffrey Archer books when he knows full well what Sandalphon is actually smelling — the aired scene implies that it might be Crowley, but the scripted one it’s much clearer, and I like the extra layer of courage that the clarity gives Aziraphale.
@forineffablereasonsreply: #NOT TO MENTION THE VERY THINLY VEILED HOMOPHOBIC THREAT #OF SANDALPHON BEING ASSOCIATED WITH SMITING PEOPLE IN SODOM AND GOMORRAH #SURE WE CAN CHAT BIBLICAL ACCURACY BUT THE CULTURAL MINDSET IS MEANT TO INFORM HERE #IN THE CONTEXT OF AZIRAPHALE’S QUEER NARRATIVE? 100% A HOMOPHOBIC THREAT
@gomensgayreply: and saying “you remember sandalphon?” like sandalphon isn’t one of the four bastards aziraphale has been reporting to regularly for eleven years At Least????
That wasn’t “hey, you remember who this random guy is, right?”
That was “hey, remember what we can do to you if you step out of line.”
Scary shit.
@violetfaustreply: I’ve been convinced that Gabriel is smarter and even more malicious than he pretends since the watch-through when I realized Gabriel knows Adam is the Antichrist BEFORE he gets to the airfield. Even Crowley doesn’t know Adam’s name (”You, boy, Antichrist–what’s your name?”) and Beelz has no idea which of the kids he is until Crowley wordlessly points him out. But Gabe says, “That one. Adam Young.” The only way he can know is if he’s somehow keeping extremely close watch on Az.
Gabriel’s bland “I’m sure there must be some explanation” to those pics of Az and Crowley is not the shock of a being who finds out he’s been betrayed by a trusted employee for at least 400 years. It’s not even the vindication of finding out that an UNtrustworthy employee has in fact been guilty for 400 years. He’s entirely unsurprised and his denial that back channels exist is a tacit approval for Michael to finally bring this out in the open. “Go ahead and do what you want but I didn’t tell you to because I’m the good guy.”
Yeah, Gabriel has been waiting for Az to slip up for six thousand years. So why doesn’t he just use his knowledge of the Arrangement against him? Because LOTS of angels and demons have arrangements. Michael has Ligur; Gabe himself has some unnamed downstairs source. If Gabriel punishes Az and/or Crowley and one of them knows about this, the whole system could come crumbling down. (It’s fine to be a hypocrite as long as nobody knows about it.)
So he’ll just wait for Az to take that one step too far and to Fall, get chucked out of heaven. But that never happens. And it pisses Gabriel off.
Gabriel saying to Aziraphale in the sushi restaurant, “it’s a miracle he hasn’t spotted you yet” about Crowley, when 218 years ago in 1800, Gabriel spied on Crowley and heard him talking very specifically about Aziraphale and his ability to thwart, which I think counts very much as having “spotted” Aziraphale. It’s a deleted scene, but it definitely got far enough to be worth considering.
In that same 1800 scene, when Gabriel and Sandalphon show up at the shop, Aziraphale argues that he needs to stay on Earth because Crowley has “been here as long as I have.” Later, when Gabriel comes to tell Aziraphale that Armageddon is starting, Aziraphale reminds him how long he’s been here, and Gabriel responds, “so has Crowley.” These lines - the whole incidents - seem referential to each other.
Finally, Gabriel asks Aziraphale, “how was the hellhound?” after Warlock’s birthday party. Theoretically, of course, Aziraphale could have informed the angels that he was planning to attend the party…but we don’t see him or hear any reference to him doing it, and in fact Aziraphale didn’t know himself that there was supposed to be a hellhound until the 11th hour. This looks to me like Gabriel knowing more than he lets on (except in strategic moments like this).
All this leads me to believe Heaven knows WAY more than it lets on. I also kind of wonder - if Hell has the same level of knowledge as Heaven, was Crowley chosen as the Antichrist’s deliverer as a punishment, some kind of bizarre torture meant to “test” his “loyalty”? Was Aziraphale’s station on Earth meant to be a punishment that the angels are now unhappy about because he enjoys it?
@whispsofwindreply: I don’t remember where I read it, but I really liked the theory that being on Earth is a punishment for Aziraphale, but a reward for Crowley.
Aziraphale failed in Eden, so being on Earth, basically cut off from most of Heaven, would be a punishment (except he actually loves it, which must frustrate Gabriel to no end).
On the other hand Crowley’s stunt in Eden was a major success, and it would make sense that staying on Earth would be a reward. Hell is clearly miserable. Threatening to take that reward away would give Hell yet another tool to blackmail and control Crowley. I don’t think they would have given him the Antichrist if they didn’t trust his abilities, it was too important of a job to use it as a test or a punishment, anyway.
Also, from what we saw in the show, I wouldn’t be surprised if Heaven knew a lot more than Hell does. Unlike the book, Heaven is very present, and organized in a cult-like manner. Gabriel really reminds me of a cult-leader, friendly and apparently innocuous on the outside while being actually ruthless. Such a group would have the means and the motive to create a very efficient surveillance system, under the guise to protect the sanctity of Heaven.
On the other side, Hell is much more chaotic, ruled through threats and violence. Collaboration is actively discouraged. Fear is encouraged, and I got the impression that powerful demons prefer to terrorize minor demons into obeying instead of actually checking if orders are being carried out (“Do this or I’ll skin you alive” instead of “Do this and I’ll come down later to check you actually did it”). Such an environment isn’t optimal for a good surveillance system, because information will be lost in the chaos, or hidden in fear.
You can also see this difference in the way Heaven and Hell contact Aziraphale and Crowley. Hell constantly talks to Crowley through the radio or the telly, basically a constant reminder of “you are never safe, we are always watching and we will hurt you if you make a mistake”. Except that’s really inefficient, and it allows Crowley to hid things under their nose despite being very scared of his superiors. Correct me if I am wrong, but Hell representatives only interact with Crowley in the flesh when he is called to pick Adam up, and when Hastur and Ligur go to murder him. The demons usually keep their distance, which means the information they get may be distorted.
Heaven on the other hand? The Archangel Fucking Gabriel goes personally, multiple times, to talk with Aziraphale. In the sushi restaurant, at the park, in the bookshop. He gets into Aziraphale’s personal space all the time, and he usually plays it as friendly interactions. In a lot of instances, he isn’t even trying to scare Aziraphale into compliance, he is emotionally abusing him. It’s not “we are always watching so you should be terrified”, it’s more of a “hey buddy, you see how I really care? I am here and you are really disappointing me, why can’t you do this one thing right?”.
Only when he brings Sandalphon the emotional abuse takes a step further into a more threatening territory. Gabriel has a more hands-on approach than his counterpart, and if he asks the same of his underlings he probably gets very precise information.
In short, I think Gabriel knows a lot more than Hell on what Crowley and Aziraphale are up to, and would absolutely love to punish Aziraphale, except he can’t because then he would put his own back-channels into jeopardy. So he turns to petty bullying and cruelty under the facade of the Friendly Boss/Family Member.
@krakensdottirreply: The contrast is fascinating, honestly. “I was reprimanded for performing too many frivolous miracles, got a strongly worded letter from Gabriel” vs. “My lot do not send rude notes” / “Is it my fault they never check up?”
Hell is inefficient. That’s clear from their offices, it’s one of the major traits separating Heaven and Hell. So they might not check up on you often, beyond lazily sending reminders over electronic media. If you are caught not doing your job, the consequences are dreadful - ‘reprimand’ is a mild word for it - but it doesn’t happen often. Your odds of getting busted for any one thing are very low, so if you’re a renegade demon, you might as well live on the edge and take that chance.
Heaven is exactly the opposite. They’re ruthlessly efficient and organized, and you bet they monitor miracles. Aziraphale can’t so much as miracle up a handkerchief to sneeze in without them getting on him about it. That’s why he’s so much more cautious, so hesitant, always so wary of pushing boundaries. His consequences may be, at least on the surface, milder, but he is MUCH more likely to have to face them. And they add up. Beyond the notes, there are warnings, and beyond the warnings there are threats, and beyond the threats… well, Hell got their ideas from somewhere, didn’t they?
@mage-catreply: In short, in Good Omens the conflict between Heaven and Hell is not Good versus Evil, but rather Order verses Chaos, and the work makes a brilliant case about why you don’t want to be at either end of the spectrum.
@whetstonefiresreply: Heaven was deliberately kept absent in the book, when the whole thing was a Cold War analogy where they were Britain-NATO and Hell was the Soviet Union–two organizations that were not really particularly different at a deep level, i.e. you needed real expertise to tell their armies apart, and which tended not to really care about the things that are important to people, and which were quite likely to wind up obliterating life on Earth in a stupid shoving competition.
Hell was semi-present and explicitly awful; Heaven didn’t care about the right things but they cared about doing things the right way, and weren’t deliberately cruel. Just unfeeling. The narrative shared Aziraphale’s disinclination to be really critical.
Heaven is the thing that therefore got the most new building-up and updating to the current political climate, in the miniseries, as it became a central player. Its identity didn’t necessarily change, but what Gaiman was trying to say about it sure did.
Visually, they went with the effect of Heaven as the upper reaches of a skyscraper and Hell as its mouldering horrible basement, but the structural impression is of Heaven as the government and Hell as organized crime.
While the latter is a lot more likely to just come around and fuck you up, and to make sure their employees are scared of their capacity violence on an immediate level, the former is much, much more powerful, their reach is longer and they and know a lot more. Their scary goes a lot further. Good Omens the book had one foot in the nuclear age and one foot in the information age, but it’s been 30 years.
@winterbirbreply: Everyone in the notes is using this as n example of Gabriel and using an intimidation technique, which makes sense from a Watsonian perspective (even though I don’t subscribe to it), but I’d like to bring up an important Doylist (aka writer/producer decision) point:
This actually separates Gabriel from some of the biblical atrocities assigned to him, especially Sodom and Gomorrah, which in biblical mythology had Gabriel do the smiting et cetera.
So from a production standpoint, having Sandalphon in this scene isn’t (Doylistically) to intimidate Aziraphale with Gabriel as the aggressor, but instead to reinforce the image of Gabriel as the “company man” while Sandalphon is the one who actually enjoys being cruel.
I’d like to reference the 2006 US paperback edition, where after Crowley describes most demons akin to tax inspectors, he goes on to say
“…If it came to that, most angels weren’t paragons of virtue; Crowley had met one or two who, when it came to righteously smiting the ungodly, smote a good deal harder than strictly necessary. On the whole, everyone had a job to do, and just did it.
“And on the other hand, you got people like Ligur and Hastur, who took such a dark delight in unpleasantness you might have even mistaken them for human.” (p. 253 para. 1-2)
Gabriel and Sandalphon pretty neatly exemplify the difference between these two attitudes. Especially when you consider that the producers did not have to change who smote Sodom and Gomorrah, Sandalphon’s purpose is to be that unnamed angel that takes way too much joy in smiting (see his face in the 2nd and 4th panels), which serves as a foil for Gabriel who represents the prevailing attitude of “just has a job to do,” like the tax inspector.
Tl;dr: This wasn’t done to make Gabriel maliciously evil, it was a production choice where they included both Gabriel and Sandalphon in the same scene so that the audience would a. See an angel described in the book as “[smiting] a good deal harder than strictly necessary” and b. Have it be made clear that contrary to what biblical mythology might suggest, this angel is not Gabriel.
@morelifeangelreply: I think it goes even beyond that. I think Gabriel certainly had a sense that Aziraphale had gotten (from his point of view) too comfortable with the humans, but beyond that, I get the impression that he likes intimidating Aziraphale simply for the fun of it. While Sandalphon seems like a petty thug, he’s at least obvious in what he is.
Gabriel is more like the sort of person who can do horrible things at his job and actively enjoy it, and then go around to enjoy a nice meal with his wife and children. The sort people say, “He could never do something like that, he’s such a good guy!”
After all, he’s on God’s side, so anything he does is clearly right, isn’t it?
@fuckyeahisawthatreply: There’s a lot of great takes on this scene in the reblogs already, but yeah… Gabriel may be oblivious about many human things (not because he’s dumb but because he just doesn’t care) but he’s not stupid.
As for whether he has any idea what’s going on between Aziraphale and Crowley…personally, I don’t think he has the imagination for that. But he’s a bully, so making people uncomfortable is fun, and Aziraphale’s a soft target cause clearly he’s seen as The Weird One among angels.
Right after this scene, there’s a parallel scene with Crowley, where Hastur and Ligur talk to him through the TV. The thing about both these scenes is that Aziraphale and Crowley’s respective higher-ups and lower-downs don’t really deliver any new information to them. In both cases, the sole purpose of these “HEY just checking in!!” visits is intimidation. It’s to remind them, Shit’s about to get real on Earth and we’re watching you. Don’t fuck this up.
Of course, we the audience know that they have already, most definitely, fucked this up. And the characters, in the scenes immediately preceding this at the end of episode 1, have just confirmed for themselves that yes, they have indeed fucked this up. And here come their bosses to make sure they haven’t forgotten exactly what the stakes are. As usual, Heaven and Hell are doing the exact same thing; Heaven’s just doing it with a smile on their faces.
@not-a-fucking-pogo-stickreply: Also with the turning people into salt bit. It’s both the more clear homophobic threat and a reference to the death of the only person who looked back towards those condemned, Lot’s wife, who was turned into a pillar of salt. Definitely calls to mind the close association of Aziraphale to one of the damned ie Crowley, who he could be considered to have looked back towards after the fall by not dismissing him as the other angels seem to have done the other demons.
@rocket-poolreply: Yes to all this, except maybe Gabriel knowing what was up before Michael pulls out the intelligence network. He makes a point of calling him Azira-FAIL (whereas Crowley calls him Azira-FELL, something Gaiman has confirmed was done purposefully). I think he’s just a bully, going straight back to Aziraphale “failing” to prevent the temptation of Eve.
Of course, if Michael suspected - and they are very obviously the intelligence officer, with the backchannels - they could have been stoking Gabriel’s dislike. That would lead to this more… Careful treatment. Especially if you hold to Crowley only just leaving, Michael might have been trying to catch Aziraphale in the act…
@loptsvinr reply: Pretty sure dealing with angels is why Aziraphale is so good at lying. The angels are a very organised/lawful gang, whereas the demons are more of a chaotic evil mess. The demons couldn’t even make sure the Baby Switch Plan would be executed perfectly, whereas if the angels were given that task they would constantly be watching over everything.
@livebloggingmydescentintomadness reply: i feel like it also really deserves pointing out that Gabriel very specifically brought the angel who carried out the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah to intimidate Aziraphale, The Queer Angel.
now, in actuality, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was not about homosexuality (Ezekiel 16:49–50: “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me.“) but it’s pretty damn ingrained in the public consciousness that it was “a gay thing” to the point where anal sex is called sodomy.
it’s too deliberately mentioned to be an accident. Gabriel brought the angel who (we all have been led to believe) slaughtered queers to intimidate Aziraphale. that’s why Aziraphale looks so uncomfortable.
@ineffabilumreply: Ugh, this makes my heart hurt. How awful to be threatened by the good guys, to be trapped in a room and think, well, it’s a good thing I didn’t Fall. It’s no wonder Aziraphale is always telling Crowley, “Yes, but you’re a demon.” If this is what Heaven’s like, what kindness could he possibly expect from Hell?
#of course he does trust crowley #but every once in a while that defense mechanism kicks back in: #don’t laugh until they laugh don’t let your guard down don’t show your hand first #locate the exits be polite feign ignorance smile but not like that not too wide #it’s hard to let someone in when you’re waiting for the other shoe to fall
@thesourthernpansyreply: And to go on from that point, it so very clear that Aziraphale doesn’t agree with Sandalphon’s methods, remembering him and slightly changing key in his voice to ‘I dont like what you do, but technically we’re all doing it for the same thing, so I’ll put up with you cos my boss is right there’. And that’s it!
@falloutboyrocksmysocksreply: Oh I like this! And I’m loving the fact that there is still so much of this show left to talk about like this and analyse!
For me the way that Sandalphon was positioned at Aziraphale’s back, while Gabriel positioned himself in front of Aziraphale, made me think. In the Bible during the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot, who the 2 angels that were sent as emissaries to visit, and lodged and ate with, and Lot’s wife, were told to flee the city after God commanded it to be destroyed due to the sins committed there.
The 2 angels told Lot, Lot’s wife and a few others to leave and commanded them “look not behind thee”, to not look back at the destruction, but Lot’s wife did and she was turned to a pillar of salt.
Remembering that, I couldn’t help thinking of why Gabriel brought Sandalphon, but when he mentioned Sodom and Gomorrah, and that Sandalphon was partly responsible, it made me think even more about how he was positioned in regards to Aziraphale, and the decision made to position them that way.
It made Aziraphale have to look back at Sandalphon to talk to him.
Maybe I’m reading too much into that, but seeing as this is a show that always has a reason for literally everything that happens in it, I thought it was very interesting.
@katy-133reply: Can we talk about how in the book, Crowley went to Gomorrah?
I’m just picturing Crowley and Aziraphale separately visiting the place at some point, quite enjoying the food, not knowing the other was there. And then both of them leaving just before Sandalphon arrived, saw what was happening, and decided that it had to go.
@aura218fandomnetreply: it’s a threat to crowley too. we know what you’ve been up to, we know with whom, we know you know we know, and if you play along, we don’t have to mention this. as long as you behave, we can keep up this shared fake ignorance of your greatest sin and everything is the status quo for a little bit longer. but WE are in control of how long that status quo lasts and we can take that feeling of safety away from you and from your lover.
@220-221b-whateverittakesreply: Can we also talk about the choice of Sandalphon as the heavy in particular? We know Az is super gay coded, and his narrative is a pretty blatant coming out story. But Sandalphon, of all the other angels, shares that coding. And how does Az know him? Sodom and Freaking Gomorrah. The biblical story most often used to persecute the Gays ever since King James decided to put his spin on the Vulgate. To me it reads as a threat like, “We know what you are, and either you turn against it like Sandalphon, or Sandalphon turns your gay ass into salt.” Sandalphon strikes me as the perfect archetype of the ex-gay/closeted-gay that works out their shit by persecuting their own. If you told me he was in charge of Heaven’s version of Exodus International for naughty angels needing reeducation to avoid Falling, it would completely track.
@ffxplayerreply: In the interview for the TV Companion(which is amazing, you should read it if you love Good Omens, I borrowed my copy from library)the actor who plays Gabriel(someone help me out here I’m too lazy to google right now)said he was going for American CEO, same kind of power play. And it definitely comes through in this scene. Intimidation through mind games is totally Gabriel’s scene. Like I don’t for a second think he’s stupid. I wouldn’t love to loathe him if he was stupid. He’s very very clever at what he does, and has zero fucks to give about whether this might make him evil. His sense of right and wrong is his own belief in what HE thinks is right. Scary concept.
@eretriaelessedilsreply: It seems others have beaten me to making this point but I saw this on ig first and wanted to contribute- the traditional interpretation for the reason the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed was widespread homosexual activities of the inhabitants, and if Sandalphon was the one who killed nearly all the inhabitants of two whole cities for being gay it seems like a very deliberate choice for Gabriel to bring him. Especially alongside other angels seeming to threaten aziraphale in terms of homosexuality with Uriel goading Aziraphale with “your boyfriend with the dark glasses”, and Uriel being the angel of chasity could indicate another threat had the relationship she implied between Crowley and Aziraphale been sexual- and then Uriel being the one to most strongly threaten him physically (at least before he was sentenced to death) in pushing him against the wall does seem imply further violence. Overall I cant help but think there was somewhat of an implication that Heaven thought the relationship between Aziraphale and Crowley did verge into romantic and were prepared to threaten and punish Aziraphale for it if he stepped out of line.
“It’s a miracle he’s never noticed you.” Gabriel’s not an idiot, he knows there’s no way Crowley doesn’t know about Aziraphale. Aziraphale is hiding something from him, but there’s no proof.
The pause there, examining Aziraphales reaction.
“But that’s what we do.” A reminder, you’re an angel, one of mine, don’t forget what team you belong to.
A threat, all of it.
@grrlcookeryreply: The demons in GO? They’re evil, but they do damage like a snake or a cat would. Theyre following their nature with no shame or apology. The angels? They’re terrifying. They’re pretending to hold the moral high ground. They’re behaving as though they have a right to choose their actions, whereas the demons simply act. I’d rather meet a GO demon than an angel, any day.
I have never noticed how Aziraphale’s instinctive reaction to being called Crowley’s friend is to smile at him:
This is the moment right before Aziraphale remembers that they’re not supposed to be seen together and starts explaining that they have never met before. So, even in Shakespearean times he already considered Crowley to be his friend. Which makes the bandstand scene and the “We’re not friends” even more ridiculous. This angel is so good at lying to himself.
Also, as I’ve already said somewhere, Crowley then proceeds with the famous Age does not wither nor custom stale his infinite variety. By saying this, he’s playing on Aziraphale’s ridiculous excuses about having never met before and not knowing each other. Basically Crowley is emphasizing the fact that, firstly, they are friends indeed and, secondly, that each of their meeting is like discovering each other anew.
In other words, he says Yes, Aziraphale, one could really say that we’ve never met before because your infinite variety makes each of our meetings feel like the first one.
Also I just realized the other day… This sentence that Will plagiarizes ends up in Antony and Cleopatra. Like I knew that before, because @drawlight pointed it out, but I suddenly made the connection “Oh, so Anthony wasn’t a random choice for a first name then, huh.” Like wow. Naming yourself after the titular character in a play that didn’t exist yet but you contributed to on one of your dates. How sentimental!!! (Especially when you consider the terms on which they parted… Happier memories… I wonder if the name is a sort of apology/olive branch. ‘let’s start over/dial it back, remember the good times?’)
God I just can’t stop thinking about this now!! Crowley, waking up after his extended nap. Getting back in the saddle, maybe still spending a few years apart from Aziraphale depending on when you think exactly he woke up. Suddenly he’s busy and he needs a name…. And maybe enough time has finally passed that he regrets the argument they had. He knows why they can’t come to terms, and he won’t ask for it again, but he misses his angel. So what better way to signal to him, “If you hear about me, please, I’m ready to talk. I’m ready to make up. Please, I’m going to build up a reputation until you can’t ignore me. I want to meet you again and discover how you changed in my absence” than to pick the name Anthony???
“Remember when I said that about you? When I talked about meetings and knowing? I’m ready for that again.”
Except. He went by some version of Tony with Da Vinci didn’t he?
…… That I think is true (I think it was Antonio maybe??? Idk if that’s a book reference or something they added for one of the special editions), but consider… Anthony and Cleopatra did exist. And their romance was defined, as much as one can glean any truth about such mythologized figures, as an arrangement becoming something more. Something real. Being on their own side against a great power that ultimately vanquished them.
And I also don’t think that necessarily precludes Crowley advertising himself as Anthony as a means of communicating all these feelings to Aziraphale. (In any case, Aziraphale doesn’t seem to know about the moniker prior to 1941….)
Select additional comments:
@ambular-dcomment: So does that mean when Aziraphale said ‘Anthony??…I’ll get used to it’ at the church, he was implying 'Wait, you’re seriously casting me as Cleopatra?? … all right, well, if that’s really how you feel about it then who am I to contradict’
@a-ginger-in-blackreply: The Roman dude’s name was Antony, not Anthony, though in British English they’re pronounced the same.
In the novel, there’s mention of the Mona Lisa cartoon being dedicated to Antonio, so he was using the name by 1503 at the latest.
@joan-daardvarkreply: This makes me wonder why this alias didn’t come up until 1941. Not to Aziraphale, in any case.
joan-daardvarkreply: Upon further consideration and discussion with @forbiddenmadrigals… What if he’d already taken this alias in Rome? He could have witnessed Antony and Cleopatra’s romance and heard Antony say these same words to her in real life. So he didn’t come up with Age does not wither, but rather repeated it. He thought that this description suited the angel well and then uttered it at a convenient time (at the Globe). All that was left was to nudge Shakespeare to write a play about the events which Crowley had actually seen himself.
Another thing excites me though. The details below confuse me more than actually clarify anything but I think they’re worth mentioning anyway:
Original sin, serpents… May I go completely nuts and suggest that Crowley could, in fact, be Cleopatra? This doesn’t explain why he chose Antony as an alias but still it’s a fun thought. Or maybe he was present at her court? Who knows but it’s curious nevertheless.
Also, knowing my obsession with solar/lunar symbolism (Aziraphale = Sun, Crowley = Moon), I found this so very endearing:
Helios meaning sun and Selene meaning moon, ofc.
@liquidlyriumreply: Yes! I saw that in my frantic wiki reading as well!!! This is all extremely good!!!! (Also if we’re being honest Crowley is not the soldier of the two)
I mean let’s also consider that we know that they view each other far better than they see themselves yes? At the trials, Crowley plays Aziraphale as brave and strong under pressure… Yes he is Cleopatra clearly, but maybe he took that name because of what he sees in Antony (Aziraphale) in the hopes that he’d take on some of those qualities 0:
But he never let on until 1941 I’m still dying at all these Implications
joan-daardvarkreply: …in the hopes that he’d take on some of those qualities
You mean, like, as if they were able to… become each other?? *le gasp*
liquidlyriumreply: but also counterpoint: Crowley adopted the name so that his initials would be AC so that way he could always see them next to each other. Esp when he thought it would never happen because SIDES and all
joan-daardvarkreply(): Knowing his propensity to symbolism, I don’t see why not. We’re talking about a person bringing stone lecterns to his house in memory of his forbidden love, he could absolutely do that.
I am also convinced he sees it as something stylish.
