Alright, listen up kids, I did not endure 10 years of Catholic school and still end up a gay atheist for you guys to miss the absolute brilliance of this scene.
Do you know what is considered the absolute worst sin? I’m not talking the seven deadly sins or even mortal sin. I’m talking eternal sins, the unforgivable sins.
The absolute worst sin is believing that one’s evil is beyond God’s forgiveness.
Let that sink in for a moment.
It sounds crazy. How could it be worse than murder? Genocide?
Because it is a rejection of God.
The central belief of Christianity is that God IS love. This love is so powerful that it brought everything into existence. It is free and unconditional and infinite. Believing that your evil cannot be forgiven is not believing in what God is.
Now, unforgivable sounds like a contradiction. If God is all giving and this love is free and unconditional, how could any sin not be forgiven? This comes down to the nature of love.
Love must be freely chosen. It cannot be coerced. And so the only thing stopping someone from existing in that love is choosingto be separate from it.
Crowley didn’t fall because of questions or hanging out with the wrong people. God didn’t smite him and send him to the pits of the underworld because Crowley was unsure about the divine plan. He fell because HE believed he was unforgivable.
@mylastvowreply: Following that line of thought (and I very much support the arguments OP makes here aka Crowley didn’t fall because of questions or hanging out with the wrong people… He fell because HE believed he was unforgivable.), is that also the reason why Aziraphale didn’t fall?
I mean Zira did a number of things that were clearly against the rules of heaven. He gave away his flaming sword first chance he gets and he lies about it to every one (including God, excluding Crowley btw). He fraternises with the enemy, going on clandestine meetings with Crowley. And we know heaven knows about these meetings. They have pics and Michael is even asking to look into this matter. He conspires with the demon Crowley to stop Armageddon and so on. Lots of things that could get you cast out of heaven if you ask me. Lots of sins here.
But he never falls. He isn’t cast out of heaven for his sins, for his doubts or his questions. Because Zira firmly believes in God’s love and in forgiveness.
I tend to see Crowley not so much thinking that he is unforgivable as such, but rather, thinking that God won’t forgive him, that she can’t forgive him. That is, it isn’t a self-esteem problem of thinking that he is so evil and awful that even a loving God can’t forgive him. Rather, I think Crowley doubts God’s love itself. It is God who is at fault for not being loving enough. He seems to see God as quite manipulative and uncaring not loving at all. We see his questioning multiple times, and he is always questioning the morally of God’s plan eg “you can’t kill kids” or “you shouldn’t test them to destruction”. It reminds me of the old philosophical argument of the problem of evil. In essence, the argument goes - evil exists in the world- children die etc. therefore it can’t be the case that God exists, is all powerful and is perfectly loving. An all powerful, perfectly loving God wouldn’t let kids die. Except, Crowley already knows for certain that God exists and is all powerful and is literally doing the killing of kids. Therefore - her love must be questioned. So, yeah I absolutely agree that he fell for doubting God’s love. But I think he actually directly questioned her love itself, he didn’t get there via low self-worth. That’s why Aziraphale’s “I forgive you” doesn’t seem to affect Crowley, doesn’t seem to be personally meaningful to him. At least, to me it seems that he’s just frustrated by it, frustrated that Aziraphale doesn’t get it. He isn’t asking for redemption from God or Aziraphale. He’s asking Aziraphale to stop playing by Heaven’s rules and get in the damn car. I hope this makes sense!
@anotherhappydinosaurreply: Yes yes yes! This is what I meant. Not that it was a self worth issue, but that believing that she isn’t completely all-loving was doubting what she is. I just think it’s a fascinating dichotomy because both Aziraphale and Crowley are questioning the plan, both are acting against their superiors’ orders, both have done a lot of things I’d classify as morally gray, but one has full faith in infinite love, indiscriminate love. And to me, Crowley talking to God and asking these questions and saying that he didn’t mean to fall shows that he hasn’t quite given up entirely on the idea of God’s love, that he wants to be convinced that her love is unfailing and unconditional. It’s the whole faith/reason paradox, which is a whole other post.
And you’re totally right that the “I forgive you” itself was a bit of a throwaway moment that didn’t mean much to Crowley, but I see its power in revealing this fundamental difference between Crowley and Aziraphale.
I love this commentary! I wrote this post in a fit of inspiration last night without fully editing it and I think you touched on a lot of things that were there in my head and never made it to the page :P
@letsveganlovecomment: I thought he only thought he was unforgivable AFTER his fall, though.
I love this scene. I really, really love this scene.
I relate a lot to Aziraphale, if you couldn’t tell from my page theme. I love his bookshop, his style, his demeanor. I relate to the emotional terrorism from people who should be loving you, protecting you, forgiving you. I relate to loving someone who doesn’t see in themselves the things I see in them. I relate to the flaws, saying things I don’t mean when I’m hurt or scared, not speaking to someone because I’ve said my piece and now I feel hurt and I’m not going to say any more.
Their relationship obviously isn’t perfect and neither are they. Neither am I, or my relationship, or anyone at all for that matter. I’ve seen a few different takes on this scene; some people think it’s cold and weaponized forgiveness, where other people feel like it’s his way of apologizing and saying “I still love you”. I personally lean towards the latter.
When Aziraphale is telling Crowley that there is no “our side” and so on, what he’s saying is, “This is all incredibly overwhelming and I’m scared and I’m panicking. I’m not ready to abandon everything I’ve ever known and I’m scared to face what could come after.” I can relate to the moment immediately after where he has a look on his face that’s basically, “Oh god, this really isn’t what I wanted, why did I just do that? How did it escalate to this point?”
Side note: in the script book it’s specifically noted that Crowley takes a deep breath as if he’s going to keep talking, but then lets it all go with a cool “Right, have a nice doomsday.” I like that scene too, even if the line stings. As hurt as he is, that’s probably one of the less destructive ways he could’ve responded.
Back to when Crowley comes back and tries to get the angel to go off with him again, then says “How can somebody as clever as you be so stupid?!”. This is frankly where most of my disagreements break down into arguments. It’s hard to respond to something like that without lashing out yourself, especially if you DID already lash out at that person. It’s hard to just stay quiet, or say something neutral and walk away. It’s hard to realize that the other person is saying, “I’m frustrated and I’m hurt, and this is how I’m showing it.” Especially if neither of you ever had good examples of emotional regulation, or healthy disagreements (like, say, your ineffable mother throws you out the moment you disagree with her, or your perfect holier-than-thou family emotionally/literally beats you into falling in line).
So, I don’t personally see someone who is cold. I see a lot of emotion in his eyes when he says it. He’s already lashed out earlier, and it didn’t do anything except make him feel awful. What I hear when I watch that scene is, “You’ve hurt me, you’ve done something that warrants needing forgiveness. But, I see that you’re also coming from a place of pain, that’s what you’re trying to say to me right now. I’m letting you know that we can still come back from this, you’re notunforgivable.”
It honestly changed the way I approached disagreements, even when communication is starting to break down. I don’t LITERALLY say, “I forgive you,” because in a real-life argument that’s probably a good way to upset someone (it certainly didn’t help Crowley in the moment). But I do take a moment to stop before saying something I regret. More than that, I WANT to see the other perspective because I DO care about how they feel and why. I WANT to be compassionate and caring, I WANT the other person to know that I’m willing to step back so we can resolve things in a healthy way for both of us. So, I take the time to try to understand, and communicate that I understand, without being unfair to myself or compromising my own feelings.
No real-life relationship should be directly compared to a fictional one that is written to play out in a very specific way with an ideal ending. However, I do think this scene has inspired me to be closer to the person I want to be. It’s something to think about, when I get frustrated and my first instinct is to say something that isn’t what I actually mean or feel, it’s just a reaction. And it’s something to think about when someone else is emotional too.
So, there you go. That’s why I love this scene so much. It reminds me to be kind to the people I love, even when they’re not perfect. It reminds me to stop before I react, so that I don’t say something hurtful to get across my feelings. It reminds me that the goal isn’t to win or be the last one talking, the goal is to understand each other, so we can go from feeling at odds and feeling distant, back to doing this…
If you’ve ever hurt me in your life, bullied me, reticuled me, laughed at me to hurt me, said something to me to make me feel worse about myself, anything that was mean, I’m not here to say “fuck you”, I’m not here to say “screw you, if it weren’t for you, my life would be a thousand times better”. I’m here to say I forgive you, I’m here to say that it’s ok and that no one is perfect, not even me. I understand that what you were saying to me was coming from the hurt and pain you were feeling inside and that you were secretly suffering as well. I am not here to judge you for your past but to tell you that the past doesn’t matter and yeah, it hurt, but I’m alive, I still have a loving family, friends, and I go to a great school. I have no reason to hold onto that anger and hurt you caused me at the time, you have turned me into a stronger and more willed person. Thank you.
