Ma’am are you trying to tell me that when you look at someone you see their chromosomes?
how are y’all literally misinterpreting everything I’m saying. your brain reads someone as male or female not based on their genitals or how fem/masc they look but based on things you can see. believe it or not, you can’t always tell someone is trans.
woman doesn’t equal feminine??im literally butch, and the girls that are attracted to be aren’t “less gay”
really? So if you fuck a fat guy with moobs/gynecomastia what percentage of gay would that be? Or a short guy with little body hair? I mean if it’s only secondary sex characteristics then there has to be levels to it, since there’s many of them and many people are a mix. Being attracted to drag queens is therefore less straight than being attracted to manly and hairy men, right?
(i’m not going to go into the history go trans men/gnc dysphoric women in the lesbian community because it might break your brain but stay woke)
shoulders aren’t one of the things that determine if you read someone as male or female lmao. You don’t magically have X-Ray vison when you look at a person, you don’t see their genitals. There are a combination of things that cause your brain to interpret someone are male or female, but chances are, you can’t see their chromosomes when you look at someone.
:
People like OP be arguing that women who have broad shoulders, atypical fat distribution, a rather angular (“”“male”“”) face wouldn’t be attractive to ssa women while thinking that a TIM with hips would inherently be more sapphic than an androgynous woman
time to reiterate my Thots on trans women and lesbianism because if one more person calls me a terf I’m gonna scream
First, let’s evaluate how attraction works. People are not attracted to gender. If someone I perceive as male asks me out, I will say no. If they say they identify as a woman, I will still say no. Identity has no bearing on sexuality whatsoever.
HOWEVER.
Nobody is attracted to just genitals either. Lesbians don’t date trans men, and if someone I was dating came out to me as a trans man, I would quickly but politely break up with them. So if it isn’t identity and it isn’t sex, then what determines physical attraction?
Secondary sex characteristics. Things like fat distribution, breasts or lack thereof, Adam’s apple or lack thereof. Pretty much things that aren’t inherently sexual but still let our brain know “this is a man/this is a woman.”
So, knowing this, is it possible for a lesbian to be attracted to/date a trans woman? Absolutely.
Trans women are women and can be lesbians. There, thays my opinion.
However, knowing the genital preference debate, there’s a lot more nuance to be had. While trans women are women, their experiences and medical needs will be greatly different from “biological” women. In a census, wouldn’t it be much more concise to make the distinction? (Ex. trans women are at risk for ____ makes a lot more sense than “women are at risk for____”)
Also, lesbians inherently do not like dick, as it is a male sex organ. Is it possible for a lesbian to be in a sexual relationship with a trans women despite the penis? Yeah, of course. But is a penis something lesbians will inherently desire and should accept? No.
It’s a nuanced issue so there no quick way to sum up my thoughts, but I hope this makes my opinion a bit clearer !
You said attraction and sexuality is based on secondary sex characteristics not primary ones (they’re called primary for a reason but whatever).
Therefore being attracted to someone like an intersex woman who has certain male sex characteristics (like a beard, flat chest, etc.) would be “less gay”, or straight entirely since some can pass as male. Or does that only work with transmen? You’re the one claiming it’s based on what you see, not me.
Lmao you can’t see chromosomes but you can certainly see a dick. If I go on a date with a “woman” and find out he’s a man then I’m going to immediately drop him because I’m a lesbian and not attracted to men and dick. Thats how sexuality works, you’re never going to pretend away that genitals are a fundamental part of sexuality. No lesbians are attracted to or “neutral” about dick, that’s called a bisexual.
And again, lesbians can and do date trans men and that debunks your entire argument. Women are women not matter how masculine they are or how many drugs they’re on.
I mean..we do kind of agree. If I go on a date with a trans woman and find out she’s trans, that relationship definitely isn’t going to continue. I also agree with you when you say that no lesbian is attracted to dick.
if I look at someone with a beard I’m probably going to register them as male. It’s the way my brain is wired to perceive gender. Flat chests add more nuanced, because they’re not an inherently fem or masc characteristic. A woman with a flat chest still looks like a woman. and since you brought up intersex people, what about the few whose genitalia isn’t strictly male or female? Chromosomally, they’d be of the male sex no matter what due to the Y chromosome being present, so would that make all intersex people male by your definition?
And lesbians don’t date trans men ! Trans men have dysphoria and may desire to physically transition, which includes hormones that greatly change fat distribution, hormone patterns, etc, and surgery, which definitely alters the way they’re perceived. So no, a lesbian dating a trans man wouldn’t exist because lesbians don’t date men (and on that subject…what if said trans man has had bottom surgery? What then? Is there a line where the theoretical lesbian is no longer a lesbian?)
You said that lesbians can have happy sexual relationships with TIMs so you clearly don’t think that lesbians aren’t attracted to dick. You can’t have a good sexual relationship with someone when you’re not sexually attracted to them lmao. Lesbians aren’t attracted to males and will never have healthy romantic/sexual relationships with them and to say otherwise is conversion therapy rhetoric.
Breasts are a secondary sex characteristic, like facial hair, hips, Adam’s apples, voices, etc. so yes a flat chest would be a male characteristic. The whole point was to illustrate that many (or even most) people don’t cover all of those, and some are more obvious or pronounced than others. Which is why secondary sex characteristics are a useless definition of sexuality unless you’re claiming that everyone is bi to some degree, since they can be attracted to many of those characteristics. An according to that definition, dating a woman with ambiguous secondary sex characteristics would be “less gay”. An on that topic, changes in reproductive system/genitalia is also part of the secondary sex characteristics so….
Intersex people are still either male or female, and either way that’s .018% of the human population that non-disordered TIMs/TIFs have nothing to do with.
It doesn’t matter what lengths a woman goes to to imitate a man, she’s female and therefore at least some lesbian women will be attracted to her. Hairy women are still female, women who had mastectomies/flat chests are still female, women with deep voices are female, women with high testosterone are female, etc. and lesbians still have the capability to be sexually attracted to them. Straight women don’t. Trans men have historically been a part of the lesbian community and some still call themselves lesbians (because they’re female and attracted to females, so, you know, lesbians), I don’t know where the denial is coming from.
I really wouldn’t bring up TIFs’ bottom surgery in your case because almost nobody is attracted to that straight or gay lmao. It’s an extreme body modification (mutilation you could say), not functional genitalia. You’d be hard pressed to find women of any orientation that see a picture of those surgeries and go “yeah that’s hot”.
A “theoretical lesbian” is no longer a lesbian when she’s attracted to males. Thats the line.
Ma’am are you trying to tell me that when you look at someone you see their chromosomes?
how are y’all literally misinterpreting everything I’m saying. your brain reads someone as male or female not based on their genitals or how fem/masc they look but based on things you can see. believe it or not, you can’t always tell someone is trans.
woman doesn’t equal feminine??im literally butch, and the girls that are attracted to be aren’t “less gay”
really? So if you fuck a fat guy with moobs/gynecomastia what percentage of gay would that be? Or a short guy with little body hair? I mean if it’s only secondary sex characteristics then there has to be levels to it, since there’s many of them and many people are a mix. Being attracted to drag queens is therefore less straight than being attracted to manly and hairy men, right?
(i’m not going to go into the history go trans men/gnc dysphoric women in the lesbian community because it might break your brain but stay woke)
shoulders aren’t one of the things that determine if you read someone as male or female lmao. You don’t magically have X-Ray vison when you look at a person, you don’t see their genitals. There are a combination of things that cause your brain to interpret someone are male or female, but chances are, you can’t see their chromosomes when you look at someone.
:
People like OP be arguing that women who have broad shoulders, atypical fat distribution, a rather angular (“”“male”“”) face wouldn’t be attractive to ssa women while thinking that a TIM with hips would inherently be more sapphic than an androgynous woman
time to reiterate my Thots on trans women and lesbianism because if one more person calls me a terf I’m gonna scream
First, let’s evaluate how attraction works. People are not attracted to gender. If someone I perceive as male asks me out, I will say no. If they say they identify as a woman, I will still say no. Identity has no bearing on sexuality whatsoever.
HOWEVER.
Nobody is attracted to just genitals either. Lesbians don’t date trans men, and if someone I was dating came out to me as a trans man, I would quickly but politely break up with them. So if it isn’t identity and it isn’t sex, then what determines physical attraction?
Secondary sex characteristics. Things like fat distribution, breasts or lack thereof, Adam’s apple or lack thereof. Pretty much things that aren’t inherently sexual but still let our brain know “this is a man/this is a woman.”
So, knowing this, is it possible for a lesbian to be attracted to/date a trans woman? Absolutely.
Trans women are women and can be lesbians. There, thays my opinion.
However, knowing the genital preference debate, there’s a lot more nuance to be had. While trans women are women, their experiences and medical needs will be greatly different from “biological” women. In a census, wouldn’t it be much more concise to make the distinction? (Ex. trans women are at risk for ____ makes a lot more sense than “women are at risk for____”)
Also, lesbians inherently do not like dick, as it is a male sex organ. Is it possible for a lesbian to be in a sexual relationship with a trans women despite the penis? Yeah, of course. But is a penis something lesbians will inherently desire and should accept? No.
It’s a nuanced issue so there no quick way to sum up my thoughts, but I hope this makes my opinion a bit clearer !
You said attraction and sexuality is based on secondary sex characteristics not primary ones (they’re called primary for a reason but whatever).
Therefore being attracted to someone like an intersex woman who has certain male sex characteristics (like a beard, flat chest, etc.) would be “less gay”, or straight entirely since some can pass as male. Or does that only work with transmen? You’re the one claiming it’s based on what you see, not me.
Lmao you can’t see chromosomes but you can certainly see a dick. If I go on a date with a “woman” and find out he’s a man then I’m going to immediately drop him because I’m a lesbian and not attracted to men and dick. Thats how sexuality works, you’re never going to pretend away that genitals are a fundamental part of sexuality. No lesbians are attracted to or “neutral” about dick, that’s called a bisexual.
And again, lesbians can and do date trans men and that debunks your entire argument. Women are women not matter how masculine they are or how many drugs they’re on.
Ma’am are you trying to tell me that when you look at someone you see their chromosomes?
how are y’all literally misinterpreting everything I’m saying. your brain reads someone as male or female not based on their genitals or how fem/masc they look but based on things you can see. believe it or not, you can’t always tell someone is trans.
woman doesn’t equal feminine??im literally butch, and the girls that are attracted to be aren’t “less gay”
really? So if you fuck a fat guy with moobs/gynecomastia what percentage of gay would that be? Or a short guy with little body hair? I mean if it’s only secondary sex characteristics then there has to be levels to it, since there’s many of them and many people are a mix. Being attracted to drag queens is therefore less straight than being attracted to manly and hairy men, right?
(i’m not going to go into the history go trans men/gnc dysphoric women in the lesbian community because it might break your brain but stay woke)
shoulders aren’t one of the things that determine if you read someone as male or female lmao. You don’t magically have X-Ray vison when you look at a person, you don’t see their genitals. There are a combination of things that cause your brain to interpret someone are male or female, but chances are, you can’t see their chromosomes when you look at someone.
:
People like OP be arguing that women who have broad shoulders, atypical fat distribution, a rather angular (“”“male”“”) face wouldn’t be attractive to ssa women while thinking that a TIM with hips would inherently be more sapphic than an androgynous woman
time to reiterate my Thots on trans women and lesbianism because if one more person calls me a terf I’m gonna scream
First, let’s evaluate how attraction works. People are not attracted to gender. If someone I perceive as male asks me out, I will say no. If they say they identify as a woman, I will still say no. Identity has no bearing on sexuality whatsoever.
HOWEVER.
Nobody is attracted to just genitals either. Lesbians don’t date trans men, and if someone I was dating came out to me as a trans man, I would quickly but politely break up with them. So if it isn’t identity and it isn’t sex, then what determines physical attraction?
Secondary sex characteristics. Things like fat distribution, breasts or lack thereof, Adam’s apple or lack thereof. Pretty much things that aren’t inherently sexual but still let our brain know “this is a man/this is a woman.”
So, knowing this, is it possible for a lesbian to be attracted to/date a trans woman? Absolutely.
Trans women are women and can be lesbians. There, thays my opinion.
However, knowing the genital preference debate, there’s a lot more nuance to be had. While trans women are women, their experiences and medical needs will be greatly different from “biological” women. In a census, wouldn’t it be much more concise to make the distinction? (Ex. trans women are at risk for ____ makes a lot more sense than “women are at risk for____”)
Also, lesbians inherently do not like dick, as it is a male sex organ. Is it possible for a lesbian to be in a sexual relationship with a trans women despite the penis? Yeah, of course. But is a penis something lesbians will inherently desire and should accept? No.
It’s a nuanced issue so there no quick way to sum up my thoughts, but I hope this makes my opinion a bit clearer !
You said attraction and sexuality is based on secondary sex characteristics not primary ones (they’re called primary for a reason but whatever).
Therefore being attracted to someone like an intersex woman who has certain male sex characteristics (like a beard, flat chest, etc.) would be “less gay”, or straight entirely since some can pass as male. Or does that only work with transmen? You’re the one claiming it’s based on what you see, not me.
Lmao you can’t see chromosomes but you can certainly see a dick. If I go on a date with a “woman” and find out he’s a man then I’m going to immediately drop him because I’m a lesbian and not attracted to men and dick. Thats how sexuality works, you’re never going to pretend away that genitals are a fundamental part of sexuality. No lesbians are attracted to or “neutral” about dick, that’s called a bisexual.
And again, lesbians can and do date trans men and that debunks your entire argument. Women are women not matter how masculine they are or how many drugs they’re on.
I mean..we do kind of agree. If I go on a date with a trans woman and find out she’s trans, that relationship definitely isn’t going to continue. I also agree with you when you say that no lesbian is attracted to dick.
if I look at someone with a beard I’m probably going to register them as male. It’s the way my brain is wired to perceive gender. Flat chests add more nuanced, because they’re not an inherently fem or masc characteristic. A woman with a flat chest still looks like a woman. and since you brought up intersex people, what about the few whose genitalia isn’t strictly male or female? Chromosomally, they’d be of the male sex no matter what due to the Y chromosome being present, so would that make all intersex people male by your definition?
And lesbians don’t date trans men ! Trans men have dysphoria and may desire to physically transition, which includes hormones that greatly change fat distribution, hormone patterns, etc, and surgery, which definitely alters the way they’re perceived. So no, a lesbian dating a trans man wouldn’t exist because lesbians don’t date men (and on that subject…what if said trans man has had bottom surgery? What then? Is there a line where the theoretical lesbian is no longer a lesbian?)
You said that lesbians can have happy sexual relationships with TIMs so you clearly don’t think that lesbians aren’t attracted to dick. You can’t have a good sexual relationship with someone when you’re not sexually attracted to them lmao. Lesbians aren’t attracted to males and will never have healthy romantic/sexual relationships with them and to say otherwise is conversion therapy rhetoric.
Breasts are a secondary sex characteristic, like facial hair, hips, Adam’s apples, voices, etc. so yes a flat chest would be a male characteristic. The whole point was to illustrate that many (or even most) people don’t cover all of those, and some are more obvious or pronounced than others. Which is why secondary sex characteristics are a useless definition of sexuality unless you’re claiming that everyone is bi to some degree, since they can be attracted to many of those characteristics. An according to that definition, dating a woman with ambiguous secondary sex characteristics would be “less gay”. An on that topic, changes in reproductive system/genitalia is also part of the secondary sex characteristics so….
Intersex people are still either male or female, and either way that’s .018% of the human population that non-disordered TIMs/TIFs have nothing to do with.
It doesn’t matter what lengths a woman goes to to imitate a man, she’s female and therefore at least some lesbian women will be attracted to her. Hairy women are still female, women who had mastectomies/flat chests are still female, women with deep voices are female, women with high testosterone are female, etc. and lesbians still have the capability to be sexually attracted to them. Straight women don’t. Trans men have historically been a part of the lesbian community and some still call themselves lesbians (because they’re female and attracted to females, so, you know, lesbians), I don’t know where the denial is coming from.
I really wouldn’t bring up TIFs’ bottom surgery in your case because almost nobody is attracted to that straight or gay lmao. It’s an extreme body modification (mutilation you could say), not functional genitalia. You’d be hard pressed to find women of any orientation that see a picture of those surgeries and go “yeah that’s hot”.
A “theoretical lesbian” is no longer a lesbian when she’s attracted to males. Thats the line.
okay for some reason I can’t reply to the reply of someone going “so what you’re saying is that you would fuck buck angel” because yeah.
Trans people are in relationships though? Like obviously people are attracted to them. And lesbians have been in relationships with trans women? I don’t want to be the person that cites stone butch blues but I am. Lesbians have different experiences and it’s not fair to disqualify some.
And you were the one who brought up intersex people. My point was that, on a base level, not factoring in genitalia, personality, life, or anything that could be a dealbreaker, it is possible to pass a trans woman on the street and find her attractive. Because your brain would perceive her as female. You can’t whip out a textbook and measure the length of her scapula or clavicle, you can’t x-ray into her pants or get a karyotype of her chromosomes.
I’m not 100% sure on the argument you’re making about “if everyone was attracted to various secondary sex characteristics then we would all be bi”?
Butches who bind still look like women? women who might have some masculine characteristics still look like women? Secondary sex characteristics are summative and the visible signs of someone’s gender. If your brain picks up on them, it’ll identify said person as male or female. There’s an insane difference between a gnc woman and buck angel or kalvin garrah.
No I wouldn’t fuck Buck Angel because she’s not attractive, and neither would any straight woman on this planet because she’s female. Although in many cases I do think it’s fair to say that the majority of people willing to date trans people are bi, since straight women only like males and most lesbians are going to be put off by the excessive hair/balding.
Trans people are in relationships with people that are actually attracted to them. Lesbians don’t date males, every “lesbian” that’s been in a happy relationship with a male is bi. Lesbians have different experiences, and none of those include being attracted to men (which TIMs are).
yes, If I see something that looks female and vaguely attractive across a bar while I’m drunk then I might say “that girl is hot”. And that’s where it ends, because the second I find out he’s not a woman all of my attraction will be gone. Because I’m a lesbian and lesbians aren’t sexually/romantically attracted to men. I went over this 20 paragraphs back. I’m not going to eat chicken because it’s shaped like a block of tofu and dyed white, it’s still fucking meat.
Sex is black and white (99.99% of the time). Same with sexuality, you like one or the other or both (and that is how sexuality works whether you redefine it or not, females attracted to only females will still exist). Trying to define sexuality with secondary sex characteristics is a failure because there are dozens of them, many people probably don’t fit into all in their respective sex. “idk whatever sex you interpret them as” isn’t a definition.
You’re vastly overstating trans peoples ability to pass lmao. Kalvin Garrah doesn’t look much different from any butch lesbian, and she’s shorter than me ffs. I do think it’s much easier for TIFs like Buck to pass though, even if you’re 5′5″ and have a feminine face as long as you have a beard most people will instinctually refer to you as male. TIMs are a different story though, I think the only two TIMs I’ve seen that genuinely pass are Kim Petras and Nikkietutorials (because they were transed as young boys before puberty.) The successful and famous ones end up looking like a surgical attempt at a Bratz Doll (like Gigi Gorgeous), and the ones that can’t afford things like FFS generally just… don’t pass. Hiding male characteristics is harder than hiding female ones. Any trip to r/transpassing or really any trans tag will tell you the same (and those are their best pictures with the best angles lmao).
Anyway, would you say that a female dating a female who’s intersex/has a condition that causes male traits (beard growth, lack of breast development, masculine muscle structure/fat distribution, a deep voice, etc.) to be straight/bi? Because that’s the actual question.
gsa club member: what’s your opinion on adding sapiosexuality to our list of recognized aspec identities? also, what did you think of our presentation panel on the struggle of maintaining femininity in demigirl-hood and other feminine-aligned genders in a butch/masc dominated world?
me:
way to equate “queer” with “shitty liberal politics”. thanks good analysis
i hate to be the one to have to inform you of this but queer theory is shitty liberal politics
my school’s gsa’s biggest project was making (shittily designed) pronoun pins and handing them out all over school. gsa also now stands for “gender/sexuality association” instead of gay/straight alliance. no more gay, only gender
ours too! it’s gender/sexuality instead of gay straight as of last year.
they’re weeding out all the homosexuality and replacing it with gender feelings
Reading through The Gay Revolution, Faderman keeps coming back to this idea that homosexuals in America ONLY managed to succeed in their activism by building on a foundation of COMMUNITY, recognizing that there were THOUSANDS just like them
Lesbians and gay men needed to know they EXISTED as a cohesive whole before they could really conceptualize changing how they were treated in the U.S.
Obviously it’s complex, and work was already being done by homosexuals prior to larger, national groups. But it makes me think about how lesbians and gay men are threatened by “evolving language” today
How can young gay men and lesbians come together, survive, fight, or thrive when our reality is twisted to the point of being unrecognizable? How can you defend or even comprehend your place in a community of oppressed individuals without words to describe yourself?
One of the greatest threats of “evolving understandings” of homosexuality is that a gay man or lesbian can genuinely look at their internal experience of exclusive same-sex attraction and worry “Am I the only one like this?”
In a space where “gender” is inaccurately made into the foundation of the gay experience, a homosexual can feel that they are alone in their “genital obsession.” That is horrifying. That is something I will never forgive or forget
I have something you’ll never have: the privilege of sharing my body and sexual pleasure with other adult males. Your brimming fury and jealousy of this reality, manifested by transing the definition of “gay” to include opposite-sex intercourse, and using slurs like TEHM to “put me in my place”, does nothing but increase my pride in being homosexual. You’re not us. You can’t have what we have and you can’t take it away from us, and it drives you crazy. It must be pretty special if you want it so bad.
