#biological sex

war-lesbian:

this is going to be a very long post. it has to be, because i know a lot of people are going to disagree with it, and i dislike arguing so i am trying to lay out everything, pre-empt all possible questions and challenges, right from the beginning. i am sorry if you have trouble reading it. i will probably not explain much. it’s about a difficult subject, one I do not enjoy talking about it. 

it’s about genital preference, which for those of you out of the loop, is the idea that in addition to only dating people of certain genders, some people will only date people with certain genital configurations, or in other words, of a particular coercively assigned sex. if you havent figured it out by now, this usually means they dont date trans people. or sometimes that they date based on coercively assigned sex at birth, regardless of gender. this post is going to focus on trans women and cis lesbians because that is my experience. if you find anything i say rings true for other groups, great, but if you want to talk about that further then make your own post.

the discourse is this: some people think this is an apolitical stance, just a quirk of human sexuality - some people like their partners with X genitals and thats just the way it is. others believe this is a product of the way society encodes meaning into bodies - its not really about the shape of the genitals, its about what they represent. if the second one is true then we would have to understand this preference as being influenced by transmisogyny, because transmisogyny is present in the way society encodes meaning into bodies.

when i talk about transmisogyny like this, i mean it in a material sense. i mean that something has a measurable, negative impact on trans women, on our quality of life, on our access to community, on how we are treated, and regarded, and talked about, or that it is a consequence of these things. i am not talking about an ideological transmisogyny i.e., one that is merely about how people feel. i think that a lot of the people who express this preference probably dont hate trans women. i think they think of us as women, they think of us as an oppressed and exploited minority, i think a lot of them want to be good allies to us. i dont doubt that. but i think they also think of their sexual preferences as unrelated to that, which is where we disagree.

so that’s the subject matter, and just a few of the disclaimers i feel i have to make before diving into this. now here’s my take -

if a cis lesbian knows that she is uncomfortable with trans women’s genitalia, acknowledges that this is probably a product of the way patriarchy coercively assigns meaning to bodies and, although potentially also a product of her own traumas, is ultimately a result of transmisogyny, and not an innate biological urge or otherwise something that trans women have no right to question, but is still actively committed to materially supporting and defending trans women in her life, then like, whatever. we can probably still work together.

now i want to be very clear. this is not about sex. this is not about me, or any other trans woman, wanting to have sex with anyone. im mostly interested in other trans women anyway. i am dating one cis woman currently, and i hope to be with her for the rest of my life, but if we break up i consider it very unlikely i will date a cis woman again. so it’s not about sex. it isn’t about that. but it’s still important.

since we know that there is a clear and measurable exclusion of trans lesbians from lesbian spaces, communities, organisations, that there is a clear and measurable lack of friendships between and social circles that include both cis lesbians and trans lesbians, compared to what you would expect given our shared lesbianism and relative numbers. given that lesbian groups and women’s groups generally, where they exist, are by and large hostile to the inclusion of trans women, not always openly hostile, but materially hostile -

then who would deny this is a consequence of transmisogyny? you cannot argue that is just biology or innate preference. and yet, when it comes to who cis lesbians date, we are supposed to believe it has nothing to do with who we can see they would rather be friends with? or who they would rather organise with, or live with, or talk to, or, like, play sports with? that is an absurd claim. an unsupportable claim. if the trends the previous paragraph describes are undeniably transmisogynist, and genital preference is undeniably both a consequence of those trends and a contributor to them, which it is, then genital preference is transmisogynist. it’s transmisogynist because it has both the effect of and is a consequence of isolating and othering trans women. it’s transmisogynist because it’s a product of the way patriarchy coercively assigns meaning to bodies. it’s a product of transmisogyny. it’s by definition transmisogynist. intent doesnt come into that. cis lesbians’ internal experience of it doesnt come into that. if your preference is traumatic in origin then it is a trauma shaped by transmisogyny. our traumatic responses are not immune to criticism.

even supposing some individuals might still possess this preference in a genderless society, since we cannot knowthis, assuming this and basing your politics around it is not a position you can possibly defend as materialist since we already know that patriarchy and transmisogyny are also shaping even our most private responses. to pretend like that’s not the case - to pretend like you can knowthat’s not the case, is to live in a transmisogynist fiction.

but the question this raises then, presumably, is does this reaction by cis women not in fact betray something deeper, that they must not really believe trans women are women, or care about us, or some such. and i would only say that wantingto fuck us does not rule out this possibility either.all it really tells us is that they, like all cis people, has internalised the value system that is transmisogyny. but we already knew that. that’s a given. we havent acquired any new information.

what i find really condemnable is defending this position as value-neutral, or demanding trans women reassure you about the way you see our bodies. what is also obviously unacceptable is pretending that trans women’s objection and discomfort with your preference comes from a place of “pressuring lesbians to have sex with trans women,” and not in fact from a place of trauma and exhaustion with the way we are seen and treated across all facets of our lives, not just sexual. if you tell a trans woman about your preference and she reacts badly, she does so because she is upsetwith you, not because she wants to fuck you. get over yourself. all of this is a mark of far greater transmisogyny than your initial reaction to our bodies. 

like, here’s the thing. i have never seen a justification for genital preference by a cis lesbian that did not misgender trans women and our bodies (with words like dick, vagina, male & female, see this post for clarity), that did not subtly demonise us, that did not portray us as sexual aggressors, that was not patronising,that did not show a supreme lack of empathy for us, or that showed any attempt to understand how this is a traumatic subject for usas well. if it was not already deducible from the nature of genital preference that it was a transmisogynist position then it would still be obvious from the way cis lesbians talk about it. 

to act like all these trans women, for all these years, offering all these analyses of this situation are all wrong, or misguided, or irrational or over-emotional or predatory,  that is what betrays your real feelings towards us. that is not a defendable position. not without denying transmisogyny, not without denying the power cis women wield over trans women and trans women’s position as an oppressed and exploited group, not without denying our humanity, our subjectivity, our basic ability to understand and talk about our situation.

and if you do feel this way, and you recognise its origins in transmisogyny, and you’re just not sure how to change it or if you can, the correct thing to do is to keep it to yourself. no public confessional, no “i feel like i should tell you this to be accountable.” you literally just dont tell us. if you keep your sexual preferences private, like you should be doing anyway, and commit yourself to combatting transmisogyny in all other respects, including in yourself, then your preferences become irrelevant. in that situation i literally dont care. 

this includes making posts on your blog about it. this includes talking privately to other cis lesbians about it and sharing how you think we are being unreasonable. (this does not necessarily preclude the possibility of anydiscussion on the subject between cis women, cis women should, after all, talk about transmisogyny and combatting transmisogyny amongst each other, as well.) 

and oh my god does this ever include tagging or replying to this post with some shit about how it applies to you and you want to do better. dont do that! i dont want to know. if you really want to change then all of the above advice is probably how you do that. the way to unlearn the dehumanising responses you have to trans women is to treat us like human beings, and that includes not exposing us to your harmful beliefs about us and that especially includes not asking us to process those feelings for you. if you can do that, and treat us that way, maybe change is inevitable consciousness follows material events.

if you think any of that’s unreasonable, consider that this is how you should be approaching anyoppressive attitude or reflex you recognise in yourself. you dont make it the problem of those people the belief hurts. you commit yourself to the struggle and deal with it privately.

and like, i do not want you to feel ashamed. i dont want that. shame doesnt help me. shame doesnt allow change, or growth, or healing. it actually hurts me. it hurts me the same way it hurts trans women when people feel ashamed *because* they’re attracted to us. shame leads to lashing out. shame leads to the kind of diatribe against trans women from up-til-then good allies i have seen too many times already. none of us are trying to shame you. we’re not doing that. we’re not in a position to do that. you’re doing that. it is cis people’s ideas about who and how trans women are that produces the shame you feel about how you relate to us, however that might be. stop blaming us.

anyway that’s like, literally the most compassionate take i can offer on this. anything else would demean myself.

and, can i add, finally, that as a trans woman, who has not always known she was trans, who did not always know trans women even existed, but who has never the less alwaysbeen a lesbian: i’ve been there? i grew up thinking i was only attracted to cis women too. even after transitioning i had to learn to look past the ingrained responses i had to trans women’s bodies. like, you aren’t that special. you’re not having some secret lesbian reaction that only cis women will understand. i’ve been there. i unlearned it. it wasn’t innate. there’s a reason this “preference” is so common among cis lesbians but virtually non-existent among trans lesbians. its not a lesbian thing. stop hiding behind that. we’re lesbians too. stop forgetting we’re lesbians too. not less lesbians. not lesbians with any other qualifier. lesbians as much as you are, exactly the way you are.

krakensdottir:

elfwreck:

wizardpotions:

dalexisc4181112:

shefoid:

dalexisc4181112:

parotcardsroxy:

professional-chaotic-dumbass:

parotcardsroxy:

tired of people saying “gender is a spectrum, sex is a binary” when they’re trying to explain transness or whatever. sex is also a spectrum

if anyone tries to tell me that sex is binary i’m tattooing the intersex flag on the inside of their eyelids

yeah you get it

I recently read an article that explained sex hasn’t been binary for decades and people were just unaware if they weren’t just xx or xy. There’s just no name for the other sex types. It was really eye opening and I wish I remembered the name of it.

queen theres no third gamete therefore theres only two sexes and intersex ppl are all either male or female (the way the conditions present depends on their sex, some even happen only in males or only in females), stop saying bullshit pls

It’s not about how many gametes exist. It’s about the combination of them. Sure xx and xy are the most common, but people are born with xxx, or xxy combinations and can cause them to develop both sex organs or none. Biologically they are non-binary because they don’t fall into the two most common sexes but they still exist. Stop trying to spread hate around here. Thanks

people not knowing theyre intersex is actually a massive issue, i didnt find out until i was 18 years old that i have PAIS and only found out when medical records hadnt been properly shared with my doctor and i had severe renal and endocrine issues because surgeries performed on intersex infants are rarely sustainable long term and cause huge issues in adulthood.

also non intersex people please dont call intersex people “biologically non binary” whilst many intersex people identify as non binary we dont really like non intersex people making blanket statements about what they think our biological sex actually is. intersex is a spectrum but at the end of the day what their sex is is entirely up to the individual, some see themselves as biologically non binary but other people also just see themselves as one sex or the other + an intersex condition. and its genuinly just not for you to comment on.

• Klinefelter syndrome(XXY)
• Pentasomy X
• Tetrasomy X
• Trisomy X
• Turner syndrome(X)
• XX male syndrome
• XXXXY syndrome
• XXXY syndrome
• XXYY syndrome
• XYY syndrome
• XYYY syndrome
• XYYYY syndrome
• Y chromosome microdeletion

That’s at least 13 potential sexes before we get to things like androgen insensitivity syndrome wherein someone with an XY karyotype can appear female.

Wikipedia pages often refer to these as “a man who” or “a woman who”; however, this ties to the current trend of assuming “sex” is the AGAB with a rough list of anatomy attached to each assigned sex, and our utter lack of vocabulary for dealing with sexes other than M or F.

And this is just the chromosomes. Never mind how they intersect with other indicators of sex and those factors don’t always line up neatly on one side or the other. Yeah, sex is not binary.

Please make sure you always use sex instead of gender when you talk about your sexuality. And if anyone “corrects” you…

@azzythedreemurr this post ended up super fucking long. I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and your post inspired me to actually write it all out, since I get the feeling that you might actually listen. 

I wanted it to be its own post so it’ll show up in tags and whatnot, and I’m going to put a ‘keep reading’ here so that people can skip it faster, if they want. 

I implore you {and anyone else reading} to read everything I have to say and really give it thought before responding. Some of it will likely trigger a negative response, I know because I’ve been in your position before and I would immediately dismiss anything that went against what I believed. Please read this with an open mind. As I say at the end of this, I’m seriously trying to present a compromise and a way to move forward so that both sides get what they want and can move on from this nonsense.

{This is the post I’m responding to, for anyone who wants to read from the source. I’ve copied most of it here but for transparency's sake I’ll link to it.}

Realizing that theres a clear line between Gender and Sex is super important, and i plead that you re-educate yourself on this matter.

If you’re not one of the ones denying biology, you aren’t the problem. I don’t give a fuck about people identifying as whatever gender they want. I think it’s stupid, since gender isn’t real, but as long as you’re not coming at me and telling me I should identify with a gender (like telling me I should call myself cis instead of just woman. I don’t identify as a woman, I just am one by nature.) we don’t have an issue.

There are, however, people hell bent on removing all distinctions between sex and gender. That is what I was referring to.

IDK what exactly you want me to ‘re-educate’ myself on, since it seems we’re in agreement.

What Im saying, is that people who transition from amab to female […]

You can’t transition from male to female. You can’t change your biology. You can alter the appearance of your biology through hormones and surgery, but trans males will always be male. 

Gender, as we’ve established, is separate from sex. They can call themselves trans women, I don’t care. But they’ll always be trans women, not women. Words mean something. And the word woman is already defined as adult human female. We need to keep language like that intact, otherwise women don’t have a unifying word to talk about our specifically FEMALE issues. 

IDK if you’ve noticed but, radical feminists in general use ‘female’ now to talk about female specific issues, out of respect for the people who identify as some other gender and view ‘woman’ as something gendered. We’re working for liberation of ALL females, even those we don’t necessarily agree with. Expecting us to also give up ‘female’ as a way to refer to our biology is way out of line. It’s effectively silencing us about the collective experience of being female. And no, ‘uterus bearer’ or ‘menstruator’ or any other words that have been thought up to replace it don’t work. None of those words takes into account the collective experience of having a female body. 

Female is a holistic term, and that is important to keep intact for us.

that date women are equal to women who date women. […]

They are equal, obviously, as humans we should respect each other and treat each other as equals.

Because they’re both women who date women.

They’re not both women who date women, though. Trans women who date women are trans women who date women.

• Trans woman is defined as someone male who identifies as the gender identity referred to as “woman.”
  
• Women are adult human females.
• Neither of these definitions require anyone to agree on what ‘feeling like a woman’ means.
• The trans woman gets to say she’s a trans woman, and women get to keep the word that refers to their biology. Win win, in my book.

I’m of the opinion that differences should be celebrated, not suppressed. Differences between trans women and women need to be talked about, and not denied. Biological differences are important. As has been established, we agree on that.

An example of what happens when we don’t talk about differences in biology is this new trend of trans women claiming they have periods. If they are having intense stomach pains, they need to see a doctor. That is not a period, because they don’t have the biology required to have a period, but it could very well be an indication of something seriously wrong. Or it could be gas lol.

And there’s also trans women saying that peeing blood is the same as a period, but peeing blood is NOT normal, and it is certainly NOT the same as when women bleed. I thought we had gotten past males thinking that women bleed from the same place they pee out of, but I guess not! ;)

Second of all, No shit gender is a social construct. Gender is more fake than a terf saying “I support trans people”. I identify as agender myself, so we should both know how fucking stupid gender is as a concept in whole.

Good, we’re still on the same page about gender being objectively fake. The difference is that your side is expecting me to treat it as something real. You’re not doing that, that’s great, but you need to understand that trans activism has become obsessed with forcing everyone to center themselves around ‘gender.’ If you’re serious about not seeing gender as a real thing, and in fact seeing it as stupid, you should be using your time to talk to the trans activists who basically worship gender. Not arguing with the people who agree with you more than you think.  

I advise you stop using “terf.” It’s become nothing more than a silencing tactic because, in my experience, everyone who uses it has a different reason behind it. It doesn’t tell me anything as you what you think I’m saying or believe.

Also? You saying that gender and sex are different would get you called a terf by some trans activists. Just a heads up.

Could you elaborate on what you mean when you call me a terf? I genuinely want to know, because if you’re assuming something incorrect about me I’d like the chance to correct it.

Finally: “we realized that none of this trans bullshit actually holds up against critical examination.” Define “None of this trans bullshit” […]

What I mean by trans bullshit is:

• The denial of biological sex. You’ve said you recognize a difference between gender and sex, and you find that distinction important, but your buddies don’t anymore. That’s a problem.
  
• Insistence on ‘brain sex’ despite all the evidence against it.
• Forced assignment of non trans people with the word ‘cis.’ I don’t identify as a gender, I am a woman because I’m an adult human female. I don’t need a word forced on me that means ‘not trans’ or ‘not nonbinary.’
• The concept of ‘cis privilege.’ I’ve read through those lists, and as someone who doesn’t conform to the expectations of my sex I don’t actually have most of them. And, most of the ones I’ve seen aren’t actually privileges for women. Being seen as a woman? How is that a privilege?
• Forcing everyone to define their sexuality to be based on gender instead of sex.
  
• Bullying lesbians, and bi women who don’t want to date males, into including trans women in their dating pool.
  
• Bullying gay men, and bi men who don’t want to date females, into including trans men in their dating pool. This happens far less, but it’s important to mention.
• Bullying straight people, and bi people who only want to date the opposite sex, into dating people of the same sex just because they identify as the gender associated with the opposite sex. Again, happens far less but important to mention here.
• Colonizing lesbianism and allowing males to call themselves lesbian, even though a lesbian is a female homosexual.
  
• Changing the definitions of words that we need to remain the same so we can talk about issues and oppression effectively. Words that indicate biological sex, words to talk about sexuality based on biological sex, even the words referring to female biology are being altered (front hole?? Really??)
• Lobbying for laws that change protections based on sex into protections based on gender. I don’t mind laws that protect gender identity, I think there should be legal recourse for someone who has been treated unfairly by the government due to their gender identity. Just like I believe in having people protected from being treated unfairly for their religious beliefs. Those laws would also protect people who don’t conform to the expectations of their sex. It’s beneficial to everyone. The issue is that, so far, trans activists haven’t been trying to get new laws created, they’ve been trying to get current laws protecting women changed.
• Denial of wrongdoing by trans women. I get that trans activists want to protect trans women, but it’s gone way too far. They’re now defending and denying trans women raping females, and are guilting people out of talking about abuse they’ve experienced at the hands of trans women. It’s alarming how many stories there are about trans women behaving in a very much male way and their victims being silenced and convinced they need to not talk about it in order to protect the trans community.
• Denial of the proven fact that trans women commit violence at a similar rate to males as a whole.
• The insistence on using ‘correct’ pronouns for abusers and rapists. A person using ‘he’ to describe their trans woman abuser should not be punished or ‘called out.’ Victims have the right to talk about their abuser however they damn well please. This is sometimes excused because it ‘hurts trans women and tells them that we will only respect their gender identity under certain circumstance.’ Yeah, the circumstances of not being a fucking rapist or abuser???
• The expectation by trans women of being included in every female space. Females need space away from males. Trans women can, and do, make their own spaces for their own needs. Women should get the same respect. Why is it that trans people get space away from ‘cis’ people, but females don’t get space away from males?
• The lgbT community centering everything they do around gender. I dunno about you and your local pride center, but mine has 4 different programs exclusively centered around trans and nonbinary people. Two for youth and two for adults. They have one for adult women, and that program is open to anyone who identifies as a woman. There’s one for adult men, and again it’s for anyone identifying as a man. There are none for girls or boys. And then there are a few that are for the whole community. If we tried to organize something for ‘females’ and one for ‘males’ the backlash would be intense, and it would likely be shut down before it even began. Even if we made it clear that ALL females, regardless of gender identity, and ALL males, regardless of gender identity, were welcome to their respective programs. 
• I can provide sources for these if you want, but I didn’t want to make this post longer than it is. I have posts that detail these saved elsewhere, so I can get them for you.

Again, if you personally are not doing these things that’s great. However, the other people who use ‘terf’ and attack radical feminists are doing them. Ignoring that doesn’t help anyone.

because the way you said that, gives me a feeling that you mean “Trans woman dating woman is hurting lesbians uwuwuwu”

I don’t think trans women dating women is hurting lesbians. I think trans women calling themselves lesbians is hurting lesbians.

Lesbian means, as I said earlier, female homosexual. This is an important word to keep so that we can talk about how they are oppressed specifically because they experience the intersection of:

• misogyny (which is defined as prejudice against females, NOT anyone who “identifies as woman” because ‘gyn’ refers to female biology) and
• homophobia (which is prejudice against same sex attracted people).

Trans women who are exclusively attracted to females are heterosexual. To be clear, I don’t expect them to call themselves straight, especially if they’re stealth. But they need to come up with a different word to use to mean ‘trans woman attracted to females’, because lesbian is taken. It is appropriation for them to use the word lesbian when they don’t fit the definition of it. Lesbian means female homosexual, and since a trans woman’s sex is male she can’t be a female homosexual. Pretty simple, I think.

And, if they’re open to people of both sexes, they should be calling themselves bisexual. If they only want to date woman identified people, that’s cool. But they’re still bisexual because bisexual means being attracted to both males and females.

There are trans people who are exclusively attracted to one sex. They are also being hurt in this campaign to get sexuality to refer to gender. They deserve to be respected in their sexuality, and currently they are not. They are being silenced right alongside non trans homosexuals.

Respecting differences of opinion and belief: 

As long as we’re on the same page about gender and sex being different, I don’t think there should be any issue. Me not believing in gender doesn’t mean that I can’t respect someone’s beliefs about gender. I don’t believe in Christianity, or any religion, and I don’t go around harassing Christians, or other religious people. As long as they just live their lives and leave me out of it, we don’t have an issue. The only time I have a problem with them is when they try to change laws that affect me or come at me and try to convert me to their beliefs. Or if they insist on me referring to myself with some word that specifically means I’m not of their faith. I’m an atheist, that indicates a disbelief in any religion. I don’t need to be assigned a word that means ‘not Christian’ or ‘not Jewish’ or ‘not Muslim.’

It’s the same for trans activists. I don’t misgender anyone, I don’t go out of my way to trigger actual disphoria or even social disphoria. I’ll use the names they choose, I won’t ask what their ‘real name’ is because I find that insulting to them and just plain unnecessary. I’ll use their pronouns, assuming I understand HOW to use them since some of them use odd sets. And if I don’t know how to use them, I’ll just use their name (or ‘they’) the whole time I speak about them.  

Tbh, I respect trans people in general more than I respect Christians in general. I know you might not believe that, but it’s the truth. 

The issues arise when they do the things I listed in the trans bullshit part of this post. If they didn’t do that shit, I would be perfectly content with a live and let live attitude towards them.

Moving forward:

There is a lot of work to be done to erase the damage that’s been caused by trans activists insisting that biological sex isn’t real. I think that trans activists who, like yourself, recognize the important distinction between gender and sex can work with the radical feminists who, like myself, respect gender identity. We could potentially come up with a solution that works for both sides. The LGBT communities in other parts of the world don’t have these kinds of conflicts, and I would like to follow their lead and end this insane war. But that’s only going to happen if we start working together.

Especially those of us who are visibly sex stereotype non conforming. We have a lot of the same experiences, and we should be working together and talking about them together instead of dividing ourselves based on what ‘gender’ we do or don’t identify with. Trans women should be working with other males who don’t conform to sex stereotypes, regardless of if they identify as trans or nonbinary. Trans men should be working with other females who don’t conform, too.

Find the commonalities, and celebrate and respect the differences. It’s a simple thing that has been warped by this shit.

I’ve posted a lot of angry things to this blog, but I genuinely don’t want to be angry about this anymore. I don’t want to fight, I don’t want this hatred, I don’t want this community to be eating each other alive because I think it only benefits conservatives and bigots. We’re giving all our attention to this bullshit when we could be working for the protection and happiness of all of us.

I’m tired. I want to work with people who are just as tired to end this.

This is an olive branch. Take it or leave it. 

As someone that works in the medical field, I wonder which language one could possibly use to talk to people that feel like ‘biological sex is a social construct’. If naming relevant body parts/organs feels like an insult, what would be a respectful way to navigate such a conversation?
(Yes, it is often relevant to know such things.)

hussyknee:

hussyknee:

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Link to blog post

Link to Science.org article: Transgender Rights Rely On Inclusive Language

Link to Twitter thread

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Great tags @rembrandtswife