#bi vs pan
Pan vs. bi discourse is so stupid just let people have their labels. I’m transandbi and my sister is pan and we buy each other, each other’s respective flags and cute pride gifts and there’s literally no problem stop telling people what their own label means or that their label isn’t ‘inclusive’ enough when it is and always has been or that their label is too new and is trying to replace things that already exist just stop. Just let people use the labels they are comfortable with. Please. It’s not that hard.
We already have homophobes/transphobes who hate every single one of us despite which LGBTQIA+ members you may personally think are legit or not. They hate us all. So can we please come together as a community instead of fighting amongst ourselves? This goes for terfs, aro/ace spec exclusionists, and enby exclusionists as well. Just stop. It’s not getting you anywhere. The homophobes and transphobes still hate you even if you hate us with them. We need to show strength and unity. Stop hurting people and especially kids in your own community.
how many times will you redefine pansexuality after being called before you finally accept that it’s okay to just call yourself bi
every time pansexuals are called out for being biphobic/transphobic/homophobic/etc they go “no no no that’s not what pansexuality means, actually this is the real definition of pansexuality”
first it was “attraction to men, women and trans people” and when that was called out for transphobia they changed it to
“hearts not parts” which was also called out for transphobia on top of biphobia and homophobia so they quickly moved on to
“attraction regardless of gender unlike bisexuality where gender is a factor” and when that was called out for being biphobic and ahistorical they swapped it for
“attraction to personality not gender” and when people called that out for being offensive and condescending to literally everyone who’s not pan they tried
“it’s the same as bi but just a personal preference for a different label” and now that that has been called out for enabling internalised biphobia i’m really wondering what they will come up with next
like how many more of these convoluted excuses for distancing yourself from bisexuality can you possibly come up with before you’ll finally be forced to face your internalised biphobia and learn to accept you’re bisexual
OK, so, quite a few people have been reblogging/liking my response to a post in the ‘bisexuality’ tag about the definitions of bisexuality and pansexuality and if/why/how they’re different, so I thought it might be useful to post it on its own, so that hopefully more people can see it.
This is a question I see a lot of people confused about, and sometimes that annoys me because I see it so often, but that’s not any of your faults - it happens because a) I spend a lot of time in the bisexuality tag and b) It is pretty confusing! So here’s my take on it - obviously this is opinion, but I’ve tried to be as inclusive as possible, so hopefully some people find it useful! Feel free to reblog/comment on this and bear in mind that I don’t identify as pansexual so in particular if you’re pan and you want to add/question anything I’ve said about pansexuality, please feel free. (Obviously I’m also open to hearing/adding bi people’s opinions/thoughts as well, since my knowledge/experiences can’t possibly cover every bi person’s). I’m probably gonna be using this post a lot to answer more posts like this, so the more accurate/inclusive I can make it/edit it to be, the better. Anyway, here ya go!
the amount of people that use bisexual and pansexual interchangeably when they want to be included in bisexual pride and/or things meant for bisexuals, but then get butthurt when people say bi and pan are the same is fucking insane. it’s just so hypocritical and really goes to show how much biphobia pan people will excuse. if you’re going to use the label pan and believe it’s different than bi, stop fucking inserting yourself into bisexual pride posts. it’s not a hard concept to grasp. you can’t have it both ways. stop being biphobic hypocrites.
it’s fucking absurd to me that biphobe apologists expect bisexual people to just accept bi erasure as a part of the community for the sake of “peace” and “solidarity”. i guarantee if any other lgbt identity was targeted and erased the way bisexuals are, it would be an immediate riot, but nobody gives a shit about bisexual people so we’re just supposed to be blindly accepting of ahistoric “mspec” identities that consistently alienate us.
bisexual people don’t deserve to be spoken over. only bisexual people can define biphobia. nobody else. i don’t see you guys allowing straight people to tell gay people what homo/lesbophobia “actually” is, so why do we allow it with bisexuality? it’s bullshit.
mspec identities are offensive. period. you cannot support bisexual people while also supporting the so called “identities” that are straight up oppressive to them. you cannot support bisexuals while simultaneously supporting their oppressors.
I honestly don’t get what is so hard about understanding that bisexuality is the attraction to two or more genders and pansexuality is the attraction to all genders. People just seem to get confused when there’s an overlap - we’re not working in binary states or sticking people in boxes here!
Bisexuality is the attraction to two or more genders
Defining bisexuality as attraction to “both” sexes is intersex erasure and unscientific.
Also this a definition often used by those who wish to misgender trans binary people and non-binary people by coercively defining people by the sex they were assigned at birth, and therefore equating sex to genitals.
Both sex and gender are social constructs, and neither genitals nor chromosomes define someone’s gender identity.
If a bisexual person defines their personal attraction as being to both sexes, they are intersex erasing and misgendering trans people and so should examine their definitions and learn not to erase and misgender people.
If someone who isn’t bisexual uses this definition then, on top of the things I mention above, they are also being biphobic and it isn’t their place to tell the bisexual community how to define their sexuality.
I am so not on top of these terminology things.
So, what’s the difference between Bi and Pan then? I was under the impression bi was for the binaries, and pan was all inclusive?
“bi is for the binaries”?
You don’t have to ID as pansexual or be attracted to more than one gender to be attracted to non binary people, and non binary people can ID as any sexuality they wish.
Pansexual means attraction to all genders and is more specific than bisexuality, but someone attracted to all genders can ID as bisexual, there is an overlap in the definitions which is perfectly fine.
I think I’ve used the wrong phrase here, by the fact you’ve highlighted it. That’s a big neon arrow pointing at my words and reading ‘look at this asshole!’, right?
The statement I meant to convey with those words was - I was under the impression that identifying as bisexual meant: Person A (identifying themselves however they so chose, not necessarily on the traditional gender binary) was attracted to person B (identifying as either male or female) as opposed to Pansexuality, which I believe is: Person A (identifying howsoever they chose, not necessarily on the traditional gender binary) is attracted to Person B (also identifying howsoever they chose, not necessarily on the traditional gender binary)
Have I got that right? That’s my understanding of the differences between the two terms.
No that’s not right, because that implies that out of all sexualities only pansexual people can be attracted to non binary people and in actuality you can be straight, gay or bi and attracted to non binary people.
But I thought that was entire point of the Pan identifier, to be the label under which people who were attracted to all cis, trans and non-binary people could group themselves - because Bi wasn’t an inclusive label as it referred to being attracted to the binary.
What’s the point of Pan then, if both identifiers mean the same thing?
The point of pansexuality is it makes it clear you are attracted to all genders, labels overlap and that’s ok!
Also trans people are part of the binary and you don’t have to be pan to be attracted to them, it’s actually rather offensive to suggest that only pansexual people can be attracted to trans and non binary people.
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Bisexuality is the attraction to two or more genders
Defining bisexuality as attraction to “both” sexes is intersex erasure and unscientific.
Also this a definition often used by those who wish to misgender trans binary people and non-binary people by coercively defining people by the sex they were assigned at birth, and therefore equating sex to genitals.
Both sex and gender are social constructs, and neither genitals nor chromosomes define someone’s gender identity.
If a bisexual person defines their personal attraction as being to both sexes, they are intersex erasing and misgendering trans people and so should examine their definitions and learn not to erase and misgender people.
If someone who isn’t bisexual uses this definition then, on top of the things I mention above, they are also being biphobic and it isn’t their place to tell the bisexual community how to define their sexuality.
Can it be more though if you’re using ‘bi’? I understand the incorrect use of the word both, because that does erase the possibility of other genders, but bi is 2. Wouldn’t any more than 2 be the according number? Or would you just say pan?
Bisexuality is the attraction to 2 or more genders, pansexuality is more specific in that it makes it clear you are attracted to all genders but someone attracted to all genders can ID as bi. Bisexuality has been defined this way by the bisexual community for several decades, the dictionaries are behind the times.
Post link
Bisexuality is the attraction to two or more genders
Defining bisexuality as attraction to “both” sexes is intersex erasure and unscientific.
Also this a definition often used by those who wish to misgender trans binary people and non-binary people by coercively defining people by the sex they were assigned at birth, and therefore equating sex to genitals.
Both sex and gender are social constructs, and neither genitals nor chromosomes define someone’s gender identity.
If a bisexual person defines their personal attraction as being to both sexes, they are intersex erasing and misgendering trans people and so should examine their definitions and learn not to erase and misgender people.
If someone who isn’t bisexual uses this definition then, on top of the things I mention above, they are also being biphobic and it isn’t their place to tell the bisexual community how to define their sexuality.
I am so not on top of these terminology things.
So, what’s the difference between Bi and Pan then? I was under the impression bi was for the binaries, and pan was all inclusive?
“bi is for the binaries”?
You don’t have to ID as pansexual or be attracted to more than one gender to be attracted to non binary people, and non binary people can ID as any sexuality they wish.
Pansexual means attraction to all genders and is more specific than bisexuality, but someone attracted to all genders can ID as bisexual, there is an overlap in the definitions which is perfectly fine.
I think I’ve used the wrong phrase here, by the fact you’ve highlighted it. That’s a big neon arrow pointing at my words and reading ‘look at this asshole!’, right?
The statement I meant to convey with those words was - I was under the impression that identifying as bisexual meant: Person A (identifying themselves however they so chose, not necessarily on the traditional gender binary) was attracted to person B (identifying as either male or female) as opposed to Pansexuality, which I believe is: Person A (identifying howsoever they chose, not necessarily on the traditional gender binary) is attracted to Person B (also identifying howsoever they chose, not necessarily on the traditional gender binary)
Have I got that right? That’s my understanding of the differences between the two terms.
No that’s not right, because that implies that out of all sexualities only pansexual people can be attracted to non binary people and in actuality you can be straight, gay or bi and attracted to non binary people.
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Via The Bisexual Index on Twitter
[Picture is a series of tweets by The Bisexual Index which read:]
We don’t say “bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders”. We say “bisexuality is attraction to more than one gender”.
If you don’t see a difference then why not use our version?
There is a difference. 1) Saying “It’s not 2, it’s 2 (or more)” doesn’t really get away from the outdated “there’s two” model.
1a) And it footnotes other genders. No need to! 2) And as with our list of points, more than one can include ‘not entirely two’.
But again - if you see genders or your attractions purely as integers then don’t worry: More than one totally includes two.
Part of the @bisexualindex mission statement is to promote “more than one” over “two” or “two+”.
We think it’s more inclusive and reflective of the bisexual community. Other bi orgs disagree and that’s cool. It’s not mandatory.
But when people who don’t use the bisexual label tell you we’re wrong, feel free to tell them we don’t care. Our label, our definition.
This is a very interesting thread and they make some good points as to why “more than one” would be preferable to “two or more”.
I specifically dislike the “same and other genders” definition due to the way it submits to the “bi = 2″ definition and also specifies a particular gender you have to be attracted to and, in The Bisexual Index’s words, “it footnotes the other genders”. (and since the SGA discourse I really don’t trust people who use it for the whole community).
But I also feel that “more than one” and “two or more” are equally inclusive and reflective of everyone in the bi community so they can be used more interchangeably than some other definitions, though I’ll definitely consider promoting the “more than one” definition a bit more going forward.
i prefer the term “pansexual” for me because no matter how you define “bisexual” “bi” still means two, and not “more than one” or “two or more”.
I really don’t see the “same and other gender_s_” in “bi”. It feels like people notices their (conservation) word for identity doesn’t match the actualised idea of gender and instead of letting the word go as something outdated they cling to it :x
The word “bi” only then doesn’t support the idea if two genders when it’s unknown or questioned and that’s not often enough for me.I’m okay with people identifying as bi though, it’s just the reason I don’t.
As ever many pansexual people continue to have biphobic reasons for IDing as pansexual.
The definitions can overlap and the different identities are still valid - and pansexuality isn’t some “new” term to replace the “outdated” bisexuality, bisexuality is an identity with its own history and community that has developed over decades.
Can we update the definition of pansexuality to include their inability to stay in their lane?
so if bisexual is supposed to mean >1 what is pansexual supposed to mean, and what are the differences?
Not “supposed to mean”, it does mean that :)
The differences aren’t that important really, but pansexual makes it more clear you are attracted to all genders. Anyone attracted to more than one gender has many different labels they can chose from, but they are still attracted to more than one gender which is an important thing we have in common.
Post link
Via The Bisexual Index on Twitter
[Picture is a series of tweets by The Bisexual Index which read:]
We don’t say “bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders”. We say “bisexuality is attraction to more than one gender”.
If you don’t see a difference then why not use our version?
There is a difference. 1) Saying “It’s not 2, it’s 2 (or more)” doesn’t really get away from the outdated “there’s two” model.
1a) And it footnotes other genders. No need to! 2) And as with our list of points, more than one can include ‘not entirely two’.
But again - if you see genders or your attractions purely as integers then don’t worry: More than one totally includes two.
Part of the @bisexualindex mission statement is to promote “more than one” over “two” or “two+”.
We think it’s more inclusive and reflective of the bisexual community. Other bi orgs disagree and that’s cool. It’s not mandatory.
But when people who don’t use the bisexual label tell you we’re wrong, feel free to tell them we don’t care. Our label, our definition.
This is a very interesting thread and they make some good points as to why “more than one” would be preferable to “two or more”.
I specifically dislike the “same and other genders” definition due to the way it submits to the “bi = 2″ definition and also specifies a particular gender you have to be attracted to and, in The Bisexual Index’s words, “it footnotes the other genders”. (and since the SGA discourse I really don’t trust people who use it for the whole community).
But I also feel that “more than one” and “two or more” are equally inclusive and reflective of everyone in the bi community so they can be used more interchangeably than some other definitions, though I’ll definitely consider promoting the “more than one” definition a bit more going forward.
i prefer the term “pansexual” for me because no matter how you define “bisexual” “bi” still means two, and not “more than one” or “two or more”.
I really don’t see the “same and other gender_s_” in “bi”. It feels like people notices their (conservation) word for identity doesn’t match the actualised idea of gender and instead of letting the word go as something outdated they cling to it :x
The word “bi” only then doesn’t support the idea if two genders when it’s unknown or questioned and that’s not often enough for me.I’m okay with people identifying as bi though, it’s just the reason I don’t.
As ever many pansexual people continue to have biphobic reasons for IDing as pansexual.
The definitions can overlap and the different identities are still valid - and pansexuality isn’t some “new” term to replace the “outdated” bisexuality, bisexuality is an identity with its own history and community that has developed over decades.
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